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From:
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Some Musings on R1b1c7
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 20:08:46 EST



In a message dated 1/17/2008 9:30:46 A.M. Central Standard Time,
writes:

After a long period of resistance, I am finally allowing myself to consider
the possibility that the majority of the variance we see in R1b1c7
haplotypes today is the product of the last thousand years. It is
interesting to me that distinctive allele values, when found, are usually
associated with individual families, but not with groups of families. With
rare exceptions, there are almost no close regional associations with
particular allele values. It is hard to spot candidate alleles that would
unite two families to the exclusion of all others, and in cases where a rare
allele value is seen in two different families, it is apparently the result
of independent mutations because each family's other distinctive allele
values are not shared.


I can second that. I've been looking for some connection that might set
apart families in Ireland (mainly Donegal) based on their traditional descent
from two different sons of Nial (Eoghan and Conall gulban). Since the two
lines should have split apart circa 400-500 A.D. one would think there might be
some distinctive variation in the markers. But like David, I just see
distinctive family markers not shared by other supposedly related septs. Maybe we
just haven't discovered the right marker yet? We have very few 67 marker
tests for any of the Donegal clans. So far nothing has really shown up in the 37
marker sets.

I was intrigued for a while by the combination of DYS 447 = 24 and DYS 576 =
17 that shows up so strongly as distinctive markers for the McLaughlins of
Donegal. A few of the Dohertys also have the same markers, but only a few
(perhaps 5 of 60). The great majority of Dohertys do not. I finally had to put
that aside as some kind of meaningless convergence. Why just a few? Only
one of the Dohertys is a dead ringer for McLaughlin DNA and here I suspect
some kind of NPE. The two families lived for centuries in close proximity in
Donegal. I'm sure eventually we'll find a McLaughlin with Doherty DNA.
Another marker both share to some extent is DYS 458 = 18 which is modal for both
families and off the R1b1c7 norm. But again, not all have it. Another Cenel
Conaill sept, O'Gallagher, is modal at DYS 458 = 16. There seems to be no
common thread that runs through these families.

<After a long period of resistance, I am finally allowing myself to consider
the possibility that the majority of the variance we see in R1b1c7
haplotypes today is the product of the last thousand years.

That's an interesting statement. One thousand years would be about 1000
A.D, or about when surnames were first adopted in Ireland.

<After two or three hundred generations, with lots of mutations and
lots of attendant Y-line extinctions, we get to a point where drift has
created a distinctive Y-DNA pattern that looks a lot like modern R1b1c7 but
in which the M222 mutation has not yet occurred. I am thinking this could
have been about 2,000-3,000 years ago.

Could your Wilson sample that mimics R1b1c7 but is not M222+ be a member of
that group? If there's one out there I would think there must be more. How
many of the DNA samples that appear to be R1b1c7 but have not been SNP tested
might fall into this category? There are plenty of SNP tested Irish and
Scottish R1b1c7 so geography is not an issue.

In looking at the non M222+ Wilson sample, I do see some odd marker values.

DYS 385ab = 12-14
DYS 459b = 9
DYS 447 = 24 (also shared by McLaughlins, at least one of whom is tested
M222+)

The only one that doesn't occur at least one in my table of M222+ is DYS
385ab = 12-14.

I see some odd combinations at this marker in my R1b1c7 spreadsheets (11-14,
12,13,) but none are exactly 12-14. The great majority are 11-13.

I don't really see anything that says this DNA sample is not R1b1c7 based
on STRs. Do you?

I took this Wilson sample directly from the Wilson Surname Project at FTDNA.
If there's a corresponding Ysearch ID I don't know what it is.



John










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