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From:
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Sons of Niall of the Nine Hostages
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:17:47 EST

In a message dated 1/17/2008 7:06:17 A.M. Central Standard Time,
writes:
The Trinity Study.

The study, based on a sample of 59 surnames linked by pedigree to
Nial 'of the Nine Hostages' (d. 405 A.D. ), Gene Ashley says the study
might be a little biased with some cherry picking going on.But by nature we
all
defend our known heritage even before the evolution of surnames.
Gene

Gene, I was talking about known historical links by pedigree. There are no
known links between the Ui Neill and any Scottish families. There is a lot
of speculation about Iona and the Abbots of Dunkeld (both Columban
foundations). We do have a pedigree link between the Ui Neill in Ireland and the
Anradan kindred of Argyllshire (MacSweeney, Maclachlan, Lamont, McEwen) but this is
a very late document (16th century), apparently based on an earlier
manuscript (or manuscripts), the Books of Ballymote and Lecan (c. 1400). Most Irish
historians question the authenticity of this pedigree mainly because it was
written for the MacSweeneys, a Scottish gallowglass clan who settled in
Donegal. The only other pedigree connection I've seen between the Ui Neill and
Scotland is based on Keating's History of Ireland and it's odd statement that
the Dal Riata of Scotland were in part descended from a son of Muirchertach
MacEarca in the line of Nial.

It's interesting if you work through Irish pedigree collections dating to
1000 A.D. to see who is included in the text. In Laud 610 (c. 1000 AD) there
are no pedigrees for Scotland. They first appear a century later in Rawlinson
B.502 with a pedigree for the king of Alba. No other Scottish lines are
traced in this ms. A few centuries later we suddenly find a pedigree for the
MacSweeneys in the Books of Ballymote and Lecan (c. 1400) and an early pedigree
for the McDonalds in the slightly earlier G2 Ms. (c. 1345). The MacDonald
pedigree probably also occurs in Lecan and Ballymote but I've never looked for
it.

The sudden interest in Scottish pedigrees in Irish sources (except for the
Kings of Scotland) is probably due to the importation and settlement of
Scottish gallowglass septs in Ireland, of which both the MacSweeneys and MacDonalds
are prime examples. By this time they had evolved from being paid
mercenaries to landholding chieftains and of course had to have a pedigree. The Irish
scribes quickly had to invent one for them. They later did the same thing
for the Normans in Ireland.

I'm sure an historian could explain why the Irish scribes ignored Scotland
completely until about 1100 A.D.

I recall reading a post about the Abbots of Dunkeld in which some author
claimed they descended from Nial. I think this statement is based on the
curious version of Dal Riata history in Keating, which proposes two King Loarns and
two Fergus Mors. The first Fergus Mor was descended from Nial and settled
in Scotland long before the traditional 500 AD. date. The first King Loarn
was a son of his in Dal Riata in Scotland. But then the text goes on to
mention a second Fergus Mor and a second King Loarn, descended not from Nial but
from the Dal Fiatach of NE Ireland (ie, the traditional pedigree from Erc, son
of Eochaidh Muinremhar). I don't know about anyone else but two Fergus Mors
and two King Loarns is too much too swallow. Keating obviously ran across
two conflicting versions of the Dal Riata foundation legend and attempted to
combine them. The result is a complete mishmash unfortunately continued
uncritically by later Scottish writers.

As I recall, the line of the original kings of Scotland ended and was
replaced by the line of the Abbots of Dunkeld. No one has any idea who the
ancestors of this Abbot of Dunkeld were but speculation centers on two facts: the
first is the Abbot was associated with a monastic foundation established by
Columbans (ie, the order founded by St. Columcille of Derry, also in Iona).
Therefore the speculation is that the hereditary abbot of this foundation is
somehow descended from the Cenel Conaill of Ireland. This doesn't necessarily
follow logically. Secondly, speculation is further fueled by statements
that the Abbot of Dunkeld was descended from Nial (probably taken from Keating's
History).

Then I'm reading further speculation that r1b1c7 in the lowlands of Scotland
(or some of them) could be descended from this interloping line of Scottish
Kings said to descend from said Abbot.

The Trinity study wasn't really cherry-picking but based on Irish texts,
none of which shed any light on the Abbot of Dunkeld.


John











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