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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2007-12 > 1198949166


From: "Paul Conroy" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Lamineck / Lominac Correspondence
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 12:26:06 -0500
References: <001c01c84a34$62ccc180$0101a8c0@user>
In-Reply-To: <001c01c84a34$62ccc180$0101a8c0@user>


Tony,

I was going to make the exact same connection with Limerick (Gaelic
Luimneach), as it was this treaty that heralded the flow of tens of
thousands of Irishmen to continental Europe - though they were probably many
going there already for centuries, due to the harsh conditions in Ireland.

And lest anyone think that Germany was the farthest East they got, don't
forget the O'Rourkes - probably R1b1c7 - of Belarus. These were a very
successful Wild Geese Irish family who fought for the Russians, became
generals of the Russian army, and were later granted huge tracts of land in
Wstern Russia - today Belarus. Their name changed to RORK over the
centuries.

More on the O'Rourkes here:
http://bbgreenway.org/clans/o'rouke.htm

The so called "Flight of the Earls" happened on or after 1607, where many of
the elite families settled in and formed Irish Brigades in the armies of
Catholic countries in Europe, mainly France, Spain and Austria.

Many would go on to achieve prestige and fame in doing so. The Irish in
France became heavily involved in the wine industry in Bordeaux and also
gave us Hennessey Cognac. Other notables are:

Juan O'donoju (O'Donohue), the last "Spanish" viceroy of New Spain.

The various Obregon (O'Brien) generals, including Alvarado Obregon of Mexico
- there is even a city Ciudad Obregon called after him.

Count Cornelius Rork (O'Rourke) of Belarus - President of Russia - who led
the Russians against Napoleon's Grande Armee. As well as many other General
Rork's of Belarus who led the Russian Armies.

General Brown of Austria, and the various other Brown generals who served
Austria and later Russia.

General McMahon, French President - famous on the Grand Armees retreat after
its failed attempt to conquer Russia, in ordering his chef to come up with
some sauce made from the few provisions they has left. The sauce turned out
to be very tasty and later was called after McMahon - we know it as
Mayonaisse!

So you had Irish Generals fighting Irish Generals in some of the greatest
battles in European history. You also had the case of the Battle of Cremona
(Not the WWII one, but the first one), where the French sent their Irish
Battalion to fight and the Austrians coincidentally sent their Irish
Battalion, and so Irishman fought Irishman.

Since a great many of the Wild Geese hailed originally from Northern
Leinster and Ulster, one could expect to find R1b1c7 in Germany, France,
Austria, Poland, Belarus and Russia.

Cheers,
Paul


On Dec 29, 2007 11:03 AM, Tony O'Shaghnessy <> wrote:

> LAMINECK / LOMINAC
>
> Reference the most interesting R1b1c7 Lominac / Lamineck correspondence.
>
> Just some more comment to muddy the water further.
>
> Others have already written in similiar vein , however here goes
> nevertheless.
>
>
>
> The Irish City asnd County known in Gaelic Irish as Luimneach (lim-nuck)
> morphed through
>
> Scandanavian / English influenced versions such as Lymrick, Lymerick,
> Limmerick into the modern
>
> Limerick version. This is an indicator as to how easily names can take on
> new forms over the Centuries.
>
> Lamineck and Lominac may or may not be connected, however their originals
> may have started out as
>
> being very different to their modern (1600 onwards) versions.
>
> For example the name of an Irish "Wild Goose" coming to Continental
> European after the 17th Century
>
> Wars, the 1691 Treaty of Limerick or much earlier could well have simply
> become known as "Of Limerick"
>
> and therefore simply as Limerick or one of its variants. His offspring
> perhaps later on took-on a very
>
> similar sounding local name from wherever they lived. Who knows ?
>
>
>
> LOM (lum) in Irish Gaelic means BARE, eg. Pairc a lomadh, (paw-airk a
> luma) means to mow a field closely.
>
> LOMANACH (lum-maunoch) when referring to a person in Irish Gaelic can mean
> either an ascetic or
>
> excessively thin person or one poorly or scantily clad or both. Such a
> description could easily fit Early Irish
>
> Christian Monks or the many "Irish Beggar" Refugees who flooded
> Continental Europe at various times.
>
> The Luim or Lim part of the Limerick nameplace derives also from the
> Gaelic LOM.
>
>
>
> LOM MANAIGH (lum-maun-nee) could also refer to bald, ie. shorn or tonsured
> Irish Monks and their
>
> associates or followers. Manach (maun-och) = Monk. Manaigh = Monks.
>
>
>
> The two UA LOMAN references in the Irish "Annals of the Four Masters"
> refer respectively to persons
>
> probably of the Ua Maine and Ulaidh groups, neither of whom should
> theoretically be R1b1c7 if the
>
> seeming Gaelic Genealogies R1b1c7 association with the various Condos /
> Connachta groups is valid.
>
> (remember according to Gaelic tradition the Uí Neill sub-sets are branches
> of the wider Connachta).
>
>
>
> All sorts of Lominac / Lamineck permutations are possible.
>
> The R1b1c7 Lamineck / Lominac association could be the result of a single
> Gaelic Connachta
>
> interloper into a completely unrelaterd indigenous Contintental European
> family.
>
> The Irish Monk connection with Brittany is plausible as is the Breton
> derived nameplace connection.
>
> The Lamineck / Lominac investigation could be the beginning of a trail to
> a Continental European
>
> origin for R1b1c7. Again, who knows ?
>
> Bottom line in making connections through DNA is massively more widespread
> DNA Test Results than
>
> currently available. Hopefully the Lominac / Lamineck saga will run and
> run.
>
>
>
> Tony O'Shaughnessy
>
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