DNA-R1B1C7-L Archives

Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2007-12 > 1198479933


From: yair <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] r1b1c7 on the Continent?
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 09:05:33 +0200
References: <bf2.264e945f.349f8dda@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <bf2.264e945f.349f8dda@aol.com>


At 12:09 PM 12/23/2007, you wrote:
>In a message dated 12/23/2007 2:17:20 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> writes:
>
>There were also reports that r1b1c7 appears in Europe.
>Certain names were adduced. Some of these names appeared to be of
>Irish or British
>
>This has been posted before but it wouldn't hurt to do it again.
>
>Matches in Germany
>
>QVDQ9 Brune Germany R1b1
>YZWJ9 Baker Bingen-on the Rhine, Germany
>WCZUU Lominac (Lamineck) Lauterecken, Germany
>German Project (FTDNA) Willauer Germany
>German. Proj.(FTDNA) Diehl Germany
>SMGF Steiner Oberschlesion, Germany
>32NVU Jaeckel Hesse-Darmstadt/Hessen-Darmstadt, Germany
>59TV6 Hagan Germany
>SMGF Kohl Darmstadt, Hessen
>GMK33 Stoehr Roschbach, Palatinate/Pfalz, Germany
>4MXVZ Stroup U.S. (German descent)
>PVTA8 Rotenberry Germany
>3RPDB Shoemaker Germany

Those of the above who have registered their provenance in Germany
all seem to indicate a concentration on the Palatine-Rhineland-Hesse area.
This seems to support your suggestion.
It is hard to believe that there is no additional information.
The Germans are often reasonably intelligent,
affluent, and traditionally many of them
have had some interest in ancestry. One would think they would be more active.

>
>Matches in Denmark
>
>SMGF Myrup
>SMGF Jacobson
>
>Matches in Sweden
>
>CH83B Fryklöf Sweden
>SMGF NILLSON Sweden
>
>Matches in Iceland
>
>SMGF MYRES Iceland
>
>
>Most of these matches appear to be R1b1c7. But objections are always
>raised. Only one to my knowledge has been SNP
>tested (Lominac). Most probably
>never will be. A few are only 12 marker tests that will probably never be
>upgraded. The standard explanation offered for
>the presence of R1b1c7 in Germany
>(or really anywhere but Ireland and Scotland) are:
>
>1. The Wild geese
>2. Wandering Irish monks/Irish monasteries on the continent
>
>When it is suggested that none of these surnames is vaguely Celtic we always
>hear that the Wild Geese adopted new surnames in their new countries. Or in
>the case of Iceland they must be Irish slaves.
>
>I don't find any of these suggestions very plausible.
>
>Our DNA experts are united in their theory that R1b1c7 originated in Ireland
>(McEwen, Knordtfedt). Dr. Faux seems to be (or was) the odd man out in this
>category:
>
>3) R1b1c7 is doubtless a recent mutation on M269 Y-chromosomes and is
>confined to those whose ancestry is traced to
>Northwest Ireland (although it may
>occur elsewhere as a result of migration, or if
>Spain or France perhaps because
> the first M222 emerged there).
>
>
>I will be upfront about my own biases. O'Rahilly (Early Irish History and
>Mythology) said the Ui Neill/and/or Connachta (ie, northern goidels) were
>latecomers to Ireland, arriving from Gaul no
>earlier than 300 B.C. and possibly
>as late as 50 B.C. In terms of O'Rahilly's theories R1b1c7 matches in
>Germany make perfect sense, not as wild geese,
>but as remnants of a population once
>indigenous to Gaul that may have migrated westward under pressure from
>Germanic tribes pouring across the Rhine.
>
>But O'Rahilly also has his detractors.
>
>Ken Knordtfedt once said it was obvious that R1b1c7 originated in Ireland
>because "that's where the haplotypes are." Well - what if an entire tribe
>migrated westward to the maritime limits of
>Gaul, leaving a few remnants behind,
>took to boats and sailed to Scotland or Ireland. Other remnants might have
>filtered across the channel into England. What if this tribe in Ireland was
>simply, as is so often stated, spectacularly successful, and within a few
>centuries managed to spread its haplotypes over
>much of western and northwestern
>Ireland?
>
> I myself find it strange that if R1b1c7 originated in Ireland 3,000 years
>ago as some say that their DNA is largely confined to the west and northwest
>and virtually absent in the south of Ireland. After all that time wouldn't
>we find R1b1c7 spread uniformly across the length and breadth of this tiny
>little island?
>
> I realize this is heresy and I stand ready to be lashed.
>
>
>John
>
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