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From:
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] r1b1c7 on the Continent?
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 22:04:51 EST
In a message dated 12/23/2007 7:50:56 A.M. Central Standard Time,
writes:
Hi John,
The "experts" don't seem to be reading the Journal of Genetic Genealogy, or
not commenting on it. Kevin Campbell's article on deconstructing Oppenheimer
indicates that Oppenheimer uses a value of 10 at DYS 391 as THE marker of
early R1b in the British Isles. Guess what? R1b1c7 modal has 11 there. This
could be used as evidence in support of the views of O'Rahilly, yourself, and
myself.
Sincerely, John Plummer
I'll have to let the DNA experts weigh in on that one. Any takers?
In reading and re-reading O'Rahilly over the years I am struck by the fact
that most of the identifiable tribes in Ireland from the time of Ptolemy's map
migrated there from either Gaul or Britain at different times in the
historical period. In other words the gene flow was from east to west. One example
are the Brigantes in South Wexford, of whom O'Rahilly states "it is hardly
possible to disassociate them from the Brigantes of Britain." Another is the
Menapii, also Belgic tribe in Gaul, thought by scholars to represent the
ancient Monaig of Irish history. And O'Rahilly informs us the Lagin came to
Ireland from Armorica in Gaul. And of course O'Rahilly also equates a number of
Irish tribes with the Belgae of the continent (Iverni, Dal Riata, Ulutii).
The Belgae themselves are present in England in Ptolemy's map. There isn't a
trace of any tribe on Ptolemy's map that can be equated with the Ui Neill or
Connachta in Ireland. Hence O'Rahilly's theory that they were late arrivals
in Ireland.
But I'll let O'Rahilly speak for himself:
"If anything is certain about them, it is that the Goidels reached Ireland
direct from the Continent...for more reasons than one we cannot accept the
'learned' Irish view that they came from Spain; hence they must have come to
Ireland from Gaul."
As a possible model for the migration of the goidels from Gaul, O'Rahilly
points to the mass migration of the Helvetii and other tribes from
Switzerland in 58 B.C. "According to Caesar five tribes took place in this trek, viz.,
the Hevetii, Rauraci, Tulingi, Latobrigi and Boii." He also points to the
mass migation of Celts from southwest Britain to Armorica in the 5th century
A.D. "The most likely cause of such a wholesale migration would have been the
pressure of neighboring enemies, whether these enemies were fellow-Celts or
Romans or Germans. If (which is not certain) the continental goidels were
settled within the area which became the Roman province of Gallia Narbonensis,
their migration to the west coast must have taken place not later than 120
B.C."
I do not know if O'Rahilly is right or not. But consider what it might
mean for R1b1c7 if his theories are true. Under his scenario, M222+ would have
originated in Gaul and migrated west to the maritime provinces of Gaul.
>From there it could have filtered into both England and Scotland. A large band
might have circled Scotland and landed in Ireland. Or R1b1c7 might have come
directly from Scotland to Ireland. At every stop along the way scattered
remnants might have quit the migration or not migrated at all.
As things stand now, the assumption is M222+ originated in Ireland and
therefore must have migrated east to Britain, Scotland and points beyond on the
continent. If this happened it's the exact opposite of the known population
movements in historic times. Of course if M222+ really originated in Ireland
3,000 years ago than this history is irrelevant and the population
migrations of the Roman period are as well.
It seems to me there should be some way to resolve the question of when and
where M222+ originated to the satisfaction of all.
John
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