DNA-R1B1C7-L Archives

Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2007-12 > 1198404570


From:
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] r1b1c7 on the Continent?
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 05:09:30 EST


In a message dated 12/23/2007 2:17:20 A.M. Central Standard Time,
writes:

There were also reports that r1b1c7 appears in Europe.
Certain names were adduced. Some of these names appeared to be of
Irish or British

This has been posted before but it wouldn't hurt to do it again.

Matches in Germany

QVDQ9 Brune Germany R1b1
YZWJ9 Baker Bingen-on the Rhine, Germany
WCZUU Lominac (Lamineck) Lauterecken, Germany
German Project (FTDNA) Willauer Germany
German. Proj.(FTDNA) Diehl Germany
SMGF Steiner Oberschlesion, Germany
32NVU Jaeckel Hesse-Darmstadt/Hessen-Darmstadt, Germany
59TV6 Hagan Germany
SMGF Kohl Darmstadt, Hessen
GMK33 Stoehr Roschbach, Palatinate/Pfalz, Germany
4MXVZ Stroup U.S. (German descent)
PVTA8 Rotenberry Germany
3RPDB Shoemaker Germany

Matches in Denmark

SMGF Myrup
SMGF Jacobson

Matches in Sweden

CH83B Fryklöf Sweden
SMGF NILLSON Sweden

Matches in Iceland

SMGF MYRES Iceland


Most of these matches appear to be R1b1c7. But objections are always
raised. Only one to my knowledge has been SNP tested (Lominac). Most probably
never will be. A few are only 12 marker tests that will probably never be
upgraded. The standard explanation offered for the presence of R1b1c7 in Germany
(or really anywhere but Ireland and Scotland) are:

1. The Wild geese
2. Wandering Irish monks/Irish monasteries on the continent

When it is suggested that none of these surnames is vaguely Celtic we always
hear that the Wild Geese adopted new surnames in their new countries. Or in
the case of Iceland they must be Irish slaves.

I don't find any of these suggestions very plausible.

Our DNA experts are united in their theory that R1b1c7 originated in Ireland
(McEwen, Knordtfedt). Dr. Faux seems to be (or was) the odd man out in this
category:

3) R1b1c7 is doubtless a recent mutation on M269 Y-chromosomes and is
confined to those whose ancestry is traced to Northwest Ireland (although it may
occur elsewhere as a result of migration, or if Spain or France perhaps because
the first M222 emerged there).


I will be upfront about my own biases. O'Rahilly (Early Irish History and
Mythology) said the Ui Neill/and/or Connachta (ie, northern goidels) were
latecomers to Ireland, arriving from Gaul no earlier than 300 B.C. and possibly
as late as 50 B.C. In terms of O'Rahilly's theories R1b1c7 matches in
Germany make perfect sense, not as wild geese, but as remnants of a population once
indigenous to Gaul that may have migrated westward under pressure from
Germanic tribes pouring across the Rhine.

But O'Rahilly also has his detractors.

Ken Knordtfedt once said it was obvious that R1b1c7 originated in Ireland
because "that's where the haplotypes are." Well - what if an entire tribe
migrated westward to the maritime limits of Gaul, leaving a few remnants behind,
took to boats and sailed to Scotland or Ireland. Other remnants might have
filtered across the channel into England. What if this tribe in Ireland was
simply, as is so often stated, spectacularly successful, and within a few
centuries managed to spread its haplotypes over much of western and northwestern
Ireland?

I myself find it strange that if R1b1c7 originated in Ireland 3,000 years
ago as some say that their DNA is largely confined to the west and northwest
and virtually absent in the south of Ireland. After all that time wouldn't
we find R1b1c7 spread uniformly across the length and breadth of this tiny
little island?

I realize this is heresy and I stand ready to be lashed.


John












**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

This thread: