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From:
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] What's the connection here?--
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 21:08:16 EST


In a message dated 12/2/2007 4:20:16 A.M. Central Standard Time,
writes:

Or the other way around? I recalll a message from David Wilson (correct me
if I misremember) in which he expressed doubts that R1b1c7 originated in
Ireland rather than Scotland.



I see no problem in the idea that R1b1c7 could have originated in Scotland.
O'Rahilly seemed convinced the Ui Neill and Connachta came to Ireland fairly
late in history, a theory which has been controversial but never proven or
disproven.

The earliest figure in the Ui Neill or Connachta ancestry of which we know
anything at all is Tuathal Techtmar, who figures prominently in Irish
mythology, according to O'Rahilly, as an invasion leader of a band of Gaels who
invaded Ireland and conquered the Aithechthuatha, or vassal tribes of non-goidelic
origin in Ireland.

The earliest source on Tuathal's conquest of Ireland is a poem by Mael Mura
of Othain (d. 887), who placed Tuathal's death at either 135 or 235 A.D.
(manuscript copies differ). According to Mael Mura, Tuathal Teachtmar came to
Ireland to quell a revolt of the Aithechthuatha. The poem tells us nothing of
Tuathal's early life but simply states he came to claim his heritage, implying
an Irish descent and exile. In this endeavor he was joined by Fiachra
Cassan (of Ireland), his brother Findamail, and 600 men. Tuathal fought and won
battles with the vassal tribes of the four provinces. He then assembled the
conquered kings of the provinces at Tara and made them swear to be loyal to
his race forever.

Later versions present Tuathal Teachtmar as an exile from Ireland. In the
tract the Borama (Book of Leinster, c. 1170) Tuathal's father and grandfather
are said to have been slain in Ireland by the Aithechthuatha. Another
account in the same ms. says all the seed of Ugaine Mor in Ireland were slain by
the Aithechthuatha except for Tuathal. His mother took him to Fiachra Cassan,
who saved his life, and later sent him to Scotland to raise an army to
regain his lost kingdom in Ireland. In yet another version, Tuathal's mother fled
to Scotland and there gave birth. Twenty years later he returned with two
ships, landing at Malahide Bay in Co. Dublin.


O'Rahilly has this to say about the legends of Tuathal Teachtmar:

"The genuine tradition concerning Tuathal told how he had led the ancestors
of the Midland Goidels to Ireland, and how had had overcome the non-goidelic
tribes who had hitherto ruled the country, and who henceforth were to be
vassals (aithechthuatha) of the Goidels. But the pseudo-historians and
genealogists, who would give no countenance to a late date for the Goidelic invasion,
insisted that Tuathal was an Irishman and was descended from a long line of
Irish ancestors; and so in its accepted literary form the legend no longer
represents Tuthal as a foreigner invading Ireland for the first time, but treats
him as the rightful heir to the Irish throne who comes to Ireland to recover
his patrimony, of which he has been deprived by the aithechthuatha."

Although the later legends surrounding Tuathal Teachtmar describe him as a
returning exile (Mael Mura) from Alba (Scotland), O'Rahilly believes Tuathal
Teachtmar came to Ireland directly from Gaul.

"Regarding the earlier home of the Goidels a few words must suffice on the
present occasion. If anything is certain about them, it is that the Goidels
reached Ireland direct from the Continent, notwithstanding Rhys's unsupported
theorizings to the contrary. For more reasons than one we cannot accept the
'learned' Irish view that they came form Spain; hence they must have come to
Ireland from Gaul. Several pieces of evidence, which we need not now
discuss, unite in suggesting that the Goidels were connected with the south-east of
Gaul, and it is there, too, that we have found the Quariates, a tribe of
Q-Celts, located. We must suppose that, before sailing to Ireland, a body of
Q-Celts first migrated from south-east Gaul to the western coast, just as the
Helvetii and other tribes tried to do in 58 B.C. The most likely cause of such
a wholesale migration would have been the pressure of neighbouring enemies,
whether these enemies were fellow-Celts or Romans or Germans. If (which is
not certain) the Continental Goidels were settled within the area which became
the Roman province of Gallia Narbonensis, their migration to the western
coast must have taken place not later than 120 B.C. If any event the Goidels
must have left Gaul before 50 B.C., when the rest of the country was finally
subjected to Roman rule."

O'Rahilly based much of his theory on language, Q vs. P Celt. In his scheme
the Goidels included both the Ui Neill and Connachta and the southern
goidels, the Eoghanachta, as Q-Celts from Gaul. O'Rahilly seemed to think these
were two branches of the same tribe who came to Ireland at about the same time
but landed in different parts of Ireland. We now know there is no connection
between the R1b1c7 northern goidels and the Eoghanachta of the south of
Ireland. In one part of his book O'Rahilly mentions certain evidence ("which we
need not now discuss") that points to Gaul as the origin of the goidels in
Ireland.

But remember that O'Rahilly has artificially combined the Ui Neill or
Connachta (northern goidels) with the southern goidels as different branches of the
same tribe. Could his "evidence" really just apply to the southern goidels?
We know only one thing from Irish mythology about the invasion leader of
the northern goidels, Tuathal Teachtmar: he came to Ireland from Scotland,
where he had presumably been "banished." But banishment and return is a
recurrent theme of Irish mythology, used to disguise the origins of tribes who came
to Ireland from elsewhere. I think O'Rahilly may have missed the boat on
this one.

What about language? Could the Q-Celt northern goidels have come from
Scotland?

Ewan Campbell ("Were the Scots Irish") makes the argument that the fault
lines separating Q-Celtic from P-Celtic in Scotland were the Druim Albin, the ‘
Spine of Britain’ (the Grampian Highlands) and not the Irish sea as most
historians and linguists believe. Campbell believes Q-Celtic was always spoken
to the west of this linguistic barrier and was not imposed on Dal Riatic
Scotland as a result of invasion. If he's right than language should be no
obstacle in theorizing that Tuathal Teachtmar could have come to Ireland from
Scotland.

Is there anyway of proving any of this via DNA? John McEwen often talks
about STR diversity as a means of measuring the age of a given DNA cluster.
I'm not a DNA expert so I have no idea how to proceed with such an analysis.
In terms of genetic distance, none of the samples in the R1b1c7 sample seem
to stand out as more diverse than the others when compared to the modal. Some
of the O'Dohertys in the project are more distant against the modal than
most; but I don't see any clear pattern in just genetic distance. Many of the
Ewings from Scotland are equally diverse in terms of genetic distance.

The Trinty College estimate of TMRCA for the Ui Neill (277 AD) actually
fits the time frame of Tuathal Teachtmar better than Nial 'of the Nine
Hostages.' But we can hardly accept the dates of Mael Mura as accurate (135-235 AD)
or the Irish pedigrees.

Niall noighiallach m Eachdach muigmedoin m Muiredaigh tiricch m Fiacha
sraptini m Caipre lifechair m Corpmaic ulfata m Airt ainfir m Cuinn cedchathaigh m
Feidlimid rechtmair m Tuathail techtmair

The Mael Mura date for Tuathal Teachtmar may have just been derived from
counting backwards 30 years a generation from the time of Nial (405 AD). If
the pedigree is untrustworthy than dates derived from it are untrustworthy as
well.

I don't have any answers to the riddle of R1b1c7. I'm hoping DNA will
eventually gives us some guidance.


John








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