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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2007-11 > 1195662901


From: "Paul Conroy" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] On Behalf of Something like ethnic specifics
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 11:35:01 -0500
References: <e0d2d2870711210738v2d99482apd79ac9419901afed@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <e0d2d2870711210738v2d99482apd79ac9419901afed@mail.gmail.com>


BTW, for anyone interested in what David is describing - in terms of having
potentially many more ancestors than actual people alive in past times -
there is a short Wiki article on this phenomenon, which is known as
"Pedigree Collapse", see here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedigree_collapse

Cheers,
Paul


On Nov 21, 2007 10:38 AM, David Ewing <> wrote:

> Though the Y-chromosome is passed through the paternal line and all men
> have
> it, it does not code for "maleness." It does contain a gene that codes for
> a
> signal that causes the undifferentiated gonads in the embryo to become
> testes rather than ovaries. The testes then began producing testosterone,
> which has effects on a lot of different organ systems. These organ systems
> and their responses to testosterone are coded on autosomes, not on the
> Y-chromosome. The Y-chromosome only provides a "switch that turns on
> maleness;" the maleness itself is coded in the autosomes. Neither the
> Y-chromosome or "maleness" have anything to do with hair color or any
> other
> observable feature that could be imputed to be an ethnic or racial
> characteristic.
>
> Consider this. Imagine that an R1b1c7 man had accompanied Marco Polo to
> China in 1266. How did an R1b1c7 man meet Marco Polo? Who knows, maybe an
> Irish boy was captured by Viking slavers in 800 A.D. and sold to an
> Italian
> slave-owner, and his progeny remained in Italy. Suppose further that this
> R1b1c7 man fathered a son with a Chinese woman, and that this son and his
> descendants fathered sons with Chinese women, all the way down to the
> present. At 30 years a generation, we would be talking about 25
> generations.
> So how many great grandparents do each of us have 25 generations ago?
> Calculate this by raising 2 to the 25th power: 33,554,432. Unbelievable,
> eh?
> Over 33 million 23rd great grandparents for each of us. This means that
> the
> 23rd great grandson of the R1b1c7 man who went to China with Marco Polo
> would be 1/33,554,432th Irish and 33,554,431/33,554,432th Chinese. That is
> 99.97% Chinese. But he will be R1b1c7. So are you and he both in the same
> ethnic group? Of course not. He is Chinese. You are whatever you claim to
> be.
>
> Now, I don't think there were 33 million Chinese in 1266, and even if
> there
> were, undoubtedly there would have been more than a few marriages between
> cousins down through 25 generations, including probably some
> intermarriages
> with some part-Irish cousins. Indeed, if the "pure" Irish ancestor of our
> R1b1c7 fellow who traveled with Marco Polo was taken to Italy in 800 AD,
> in
> the 15 generations between him and our traveler, there would have been so
> much intermarriage with Italians that for all practical purposes he would
> have been by then "pure" Italian, whatever that means. But still he would
> have been R1b1c7.
>
> I should be very surprised indeed if we tested everyone that we would not
> find R1b1c7 represented amongst the Eskimo, Austrailian Aborigines,
> Polynesians (I think some of these have been found already), American
> Indians and African Americans (I am sure some of these have been found),
> Chinese and practically every other ethnic group you can imagine. So how
> can
> R1b1c7 be an ethnic group?
>
> Niall lived 600-odd years ago. The common ancestor off all R1b1c7 men
> lived
> more like 4000 years ago. I consider it extremely unlikely that Niall is
> my
> ancestor, and though I acknowledge that if he was in fact R1b1c7 he is a
> cousin of some degree, I do not consider that such evidence as we have
> constitutes proof that Niall was R1b1c7. Maybe he was, maybe not. There
> are
> sure a bunch of modern-day O'Neills that are not R1b1c7. Who is to say
> they
> are not the "true" descendants of Niall and the R1b1c7s among us are
> descended from folks who were living in Ireland and Scotland long before
> the
> Gaels (including Niall's ancestors) showed up?
>
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