DNA-R1B1C7-L Archives

Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2007-11 > 1195503585


From: "Donald Milligan" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] List activity, and possible rearch programs
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 12:19:45 -0800
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20071118224450.02428818@netvision.net.il><BAY109-DAV98789FC2BCAFD5C5B83A5D57D0@phx.gbl><002701c82a6c$5befdce0$6402a8c0@DW1>


GOOD IDEAS DAVID! HOPEFULLY SOME FAMILIES WILL STEP FORWARD TO PURSUE THE
STUDY. THE "MILLIGANS" IN VARIOUS BUT RELATED FORMS SHARE YOUR QUESTIONS. WE
LAST SHOWED IN SW SCOTLAND, MIGRATED TO ULSTER DURING THE PLANTATION. OUR
RESEARCH PLACES ANCESTORS IN SW SCOTLAND AT LEAST BY LATE 1100'S. RESEARCH
ALSO INDICATES THAT BEFORE THEN THE "Ms" WERE IN ULSTER WITH THE OTHER UI
NEILL GROUPS. WE HAVE DISCUSSED THE POSSIBILITY THAT OUR UI NEIL ANCESTRY
MAY HAVE BEEN IN DONEGAL AREA IN EARLY TIMES AND FOUND THEIR WAY TO SW
SCOTLAND VIA CONTACT WITH THE NORSE RAIDERS IN THE NORTH & EITHER
ACCOMPANYING THEM TO THEIR SIGNIFICANT SETTLEMENT IN GALLOWAY VIA THE ISLES
= GALLGAELS.
OR, THE "Ms" COULD HAVE LEFT DONEGAL AREA & TRAVELED OVERLAND THROUGH
CENTRAL ULSTER TO COS. ANTRIM, DERRY AND/OR DOWN & PARTICIPATED IN A
SETTLEMENT IN GALLOWAY FROM THE CLOSEST JORNEY TO GALLOWAY. I PRESUME THERE
ARE ALSO OTHER POSSIBILIITIES.. AT SOME POINT, OUR "M" ANCESTRY IN GALLOWAY
MIXED WITH THE NATIVE BRITON POWER STRUCTURE BEFORE TAKING PART IN THE
PLANTATION OF ULSTER.

ALAN MILLIKEN IN SCOTLAND MAY HAVE MORE TO ADD. THANK YOU DON MILLIGAN
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Wilson" <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 9:23 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] List activity, and possible rearch programs


> After a decent September showing (68 messages), the list traffic almost
> completely evaporated in October (five messages). Until this "still
> active?"
> discussion broke out, there had been no posts in November.
>
> That's probably because some of the conversations that we might have
> expected to see going on here have migrated to other lists where they can
> been carried on as surname or regional discussions. The DNA details of
> R1b1c7 haplotypes would probably be discussed first on the GENEALOGY-DNA
> list because that is where most of the hard core STR and SNP discussions
> go
> on.
>
> The more I see of R1b1c7 haplotypes, the more I am surprised at the extent
> to which they form a fairly regular distribution about the modal
> haplotype.
> I hoped and expected to see some regional clusters show up in the data as
> more haplotypes were established, but with the exception of the usual
> distinctions between families (and in some cases within them), major
> divisions within R1b1c7 are hard to spot. Some patterns that I thought
> might
> represent a predominantly Scottish cluster are found also in Donegal,
> outside of the Plantation area. Many Ulster haplotypes have matches both
> in
> Connaught and Scotland, which may reflect the wash of populations back and
> forth across the counties of Derry, Antrim and Tyrone in the last several
> centuries. There are a couple of haplotypes from Mayo/Roscommon that seem
> to
> have no close matches in Scotland, but that's as close to a regional
> distinction as I have yet found.
>
> I have been wondering what research projects might let us look a little
> more
> deeply into the roots of R1bc7 and family associations. Two that have
> occurred to me are a controlled surname study and a county study for both
> northern Ireland and Southern Scotland.
>
> In the former, the plan would be to rank order the 500 most common Irish
> surnames, then dismiss the first 50 or so on the grounds that their large
> populations would probably show such genetic and geographical diversity
> that
> one could not conclude much from the mix. (As one of the most common
> English-pattern surnames in Ireland, and the 25th most common surname in
> Ireland overall, my own surname Wilson would be excluded.) The plan would
> be
> to find tested individuals who represent the remaining names, then
> classify
> them as to haplogroup and County of origin. We should find ourselves with
> a
> list of surnames that show clear correlation with R1b1c7 or other
> STR-defined clusters. In an ideal outcome, the historical roots of the
> R1b1c7 surnames should be able to point us to other origins for R1b1c7
> lineages in addition to the posited early Ui Neill associations. We should
> also be able to see more clearly the geographical associations of
> particular
> surnames than we can (or at any rate, than I can) right now.
>
> Tools for this exist. The old spatial-literacy website (now relocated to
> http://www.nationaltrustnames.org.uk/default.aspx) will show major surname
> distributions in Great Britain outside of Ireland based on both the 1881
> census and a recent survey. But rarer surnames are not included. For those
> one must use the 1881 census data made available by Archer Software.
>
> For Ireland, one can make use the surname search facility at
> http://www.ireland.com/ancestor/index.cfm, but this approach is not
> designed
> for large-scale research. One must interrogate the data base one surname
> or
> surname cluster at a time, then pull the resulting population counts into
> a
> separate tabulation. The process is tedious.
>
> Unless one has the Archer package for England, Wales and Scotland, one
> will
> need to bring a rank-ordered surname list to the undertaking. Doing this
> right will probably require building a fairly large spreadsheet of
> surnames,
> counties, haplogroups and populations. Archer also provides a mapping
> program separate from the census offering that should be useful for this.
>
> There is much yet to be learned about R1b1c7. The members of this list
> have
> a role to play in that process.
>
> David Wilson
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of R. C. Mac Donald
> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 12:50 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Is this list still active?
>
> I was wondering the same thing.
>
> R.C. Mac Donald
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: yair<mailto:>
> To: <mailto:>
> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 3:45 PM
> Subject: [DNA-R1B1C7] Is this list still active?
>
>
>
> Is this list still active?
> Yair Davidiy
>
>
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