DNA-R1B1C7-L Archives

Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2007-11 > 1195495151

From: "Marie Kerr" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] List activity, and possible rearch programs
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 13:29:29 -0500
In-Reply-To: <002701c82a6c$5befdce0$6402a8c0@DW1>

I like your idea of the controlled surname study, and as one of the more
unusual names, mine would seem to be an interesting one. As I mentioned in a
previous email, the Golden name has been anglicized from the Gaelic Mac
Ualghairg. My family is from Killala Bay, County Mayo which borders Co.
Sligo. My father has been tested to the 67th level and we have records going
back at least 4 generations. His parents came to the US in 1912 and 1913.

My lack of scientific training, however...

Marie Golden Kerr

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:] On Behalf Of David Wilson
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 12:24 AM
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] List activity, and possible rearch programs

After a decent September showing (68 messages), the list traffic almost
completely evaporated in October (five messages). Until this "still active?"
discussion broke out, there had been no posts in November.

That's probably because some of the conversations that we might have
expected to see going on here have migrated to other lists where they can
been carried on as surname or regional discussions. The DNA details of
R1b1c7 haplotypes would probably be discussed first on the GENEALOGY-DNA
list because that is where most of the hard core STR and SNP discussions go

The more I see of R1b1c7 haplotypes, the more I am surprised at the extent
to which they form a fairly regular distribution about the modal haplotype.
I hoped and expected to see some regional clusters show up in the data as
more haplotypes were established, but with the exception of the usual
distinctions between families (and in some cases within them), major
divisions within R1b1c7 are hard to spot. Some patterns that I thought might
represent a predominantly Scottish cluster are found also in Donegal,
outside of the Plantation area. Many Ulster haplotypes have matches both in
Connaught and Scotland, which may reflect the wash of populations back and
forth across the counties of Derry, Antrim and Tyrone in the last several
centuries. There are a couple of haplotypes from Mayo/Roscommon that seem to
have no close matches in Scotland, but that's as close to a regional
distinction as I have yet found.

I have been wondering what research projects might let us look a little more
deeply into the roots of R1bc7 and family associations. Two that have
occurred to me are a controlled surname study and a county study for both
northern Ireland and Southern Scotland.

In the former, the plan would be to rank order the 500 most common Irish
surnames, then dismiss the first 50 or so on the grounds that their large
populations would probably show such genetic and geographical diversity that
one could not conclude much from the mix. (As one of the most common
English-pattern surnames in Ireland, and the 25th most common surname in
Ireland overall, my own surname Wilson would be excluded.) The plan would be
to find tested individuals who represent the remaining names, then classify
them as to haplogroup and County of origin. We should find ourselves with a
list of surnames that show clear correlation with R1b1c7 or other
STR-defined clusters. In an ideal outcome, the historical roots of the
R1b1c7 surnames should be able to point us to other origins for R1b1c7
lineages in addition to the posited early Ui Neill associations. We should
also be able to see more clearly the geographical associations of particular
surnames than we can (or at any rate, than I can) right now.

Tools for this exist. The old spatial-literacy website (now relocated to
http://www.nationaltrustnames.org.uk/default.aspx) will show major surname
distributions in Great Britain outside of Ireland based on both the 1881
census and a recent survey. But rarer surnames are not included. For those
one must use the 1881 census data made available by Archer Software.

For Ireland, one can make use the surname search facility at
http://www.ireland.com/ancestor/index.cfm, but this approach is not designed
for large-scale research. One must interrogate the data base one surname or
surname cluster at a time, then pull the resulting population counts into a
separate tabulation. The process is tedious.

Unless one has the Archer package for England, Wales and Scotland, one will
need to bring a rank-ordered surname list to the undertaking. Doing this
right will probably require building a fairly large spreadsheet of surnames,
counties, haplogroups and populations. Archer also provides a mapping
program separate from the census offering that should be useful for this.

There is much yet to be learned about R1b1c7. The members of this list have
a role to play in that process.

David Wilson

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:] On Behalf Of R. C. Mac Donald
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Is this list still active?

I was wondering the same thing.

R.C. Mac Donald
----- Original Message -----
From: yair<mailto:>
To: <mailto:>
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 3:45 PM
Subject: [DNA-R1B1C7] Is this list still active?

Is this list still active?
Yair Davidiy

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