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From: "David Wilson" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] Toward a phylogenetic chronology of ancientGaulish, Celtic, and Indo-European
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 15:47:37 -0700
References: <9656caf80709251156x36aab13fi35b222c687ba9f3e@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <9656caf80709251156x36aab13fi35b222c687ba9f3e@mail.gmail.com>
Thank you for posting the link to this article, which I had not previously
read. But I have to say, speaking as a Classics major and one-time student
of Indo-European historical linguistics, that the authors' suggested
classification and dating of the Celtic branch of Indo-European fly in the
face of accepted scholarship. For a caustic response to the article, see
Larry Trask at http://linguistlist.org/issues/14/14-1876.html#1
Trask himself is not free from error, as one of the original authors pointed
out in a separate rejoinder. I won't summarize the entire discussion here.
Those who are interested in pursuing the argument about linguistics and
classification theory can easily find relevant comments by Googling for
Forster, Toth, Trask and Celtic.
For the moment I would encourage us to take the Forster Toth chronology with
a huge grain of salt. Maybe a reanalysis with different state markers would
be more persuasive, but I don't think that revised study has been
undertaken.
David Wilson
-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Paul Conroy
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:57 AM
To:
Subject: [DNA-R1B1C7] Toward a phylogenetic chronology of ancient
Gaulish,Celtic, and Indo-European
Excerpt from:
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/100/15/9079.pdf
The Celtic branching pattern
> evident in the network possibly reflects the prehistoric migration
> route of the ancient Celtic language: the split between Continental
> and Insular Celtic would then correspond to the arrival in the British
> Isles, and the split between Goidelic and Brythonic would correspond
> to their subsequent isolation in Ireland and Britain, respectively.
> Furthermore, the recent (circa 6th century) migrations of Irish to
> Scotland and of British to France are reflected in the short Scots
> Gaelic and Breton tips of the Celtic branches in Fig. 3.
>
For the fragmentation of Gaulish, Goidelic, and
> Brythonic from their most recent common ancestor, the lexeme tree
> yields a date of 3200 BC 1,500 years, but this date should be
> regarded as exploratory because it is based on only three estimators,
> i.e., three descendent branches. The date of 3200 BC 1,500 years
> would represent an oldest feasible estimate for the arrival of Celtic
> in the British Isles, and indeed is expected to be close to the actual
> date if the phylogenetic split between features.
>
So, it's possible that Neolithic farmers spread out from the Near East,
Anatolia (modern Turkey) or the the Balkans - whichever you consider the
homeland of the Indo-Europeans - and brought not only farming, but the
Celtic language with them. Spreading along the Mediterranean shores of
Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, before sailing up the Atlantic. Then
spread to the Britain and Ireland as recently as 3,200 years ago.
Of course R1b is found in Anatolia and surrounding areas, and along the
proposed route, especially in Iberia, but it would be interesting to see
more results, and if R1b1c7 actually existed in any French, Spanish or
Portugese DNA samples.
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