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From:
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] R1b1c7 and surnames - O Mochaidhean
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 22:14:19 EDT


In a message dated 9/3/2007 3:43:52 P.M. Central Standard Time,
writes:

In O'Dugan's Topographical Poems (The Topographical Poems of John
O'Dubhagain and Giolla Na Naomh O'Duidhrin, edited by John O'Donovan,
1862), there is a reference to "O'Mochoidhein, king of Mughdhorna",
and this is possibly the family earlier referred to as Uí Machainéin
in the Annals of Ulster. The Annals of the Four Masters mention
Oissine ua Machainén, lord of Mughdhorna, in an entry for 997.

The Mughdorna are said to be descended from Colla Meann, and then it
gets confusing for someone like me trying to make sense of the Irish
records, because in some references the Three Collas predate Niall,
and in others they come after him.

I don't think there's much to go on here. O'Donovan has this to say in his
notes to the Topographical Poems:

120. O'Mochoidhen, called by the Four Masters O'Machaidhen. See Annals of
Four Masters, A.D. 997, 1053, 1062, 1110. The name is now unknown. This family
sunk into obscurity at an early period.

121. Mughdhorna, more usually called Crich Mughdorn, and latinized Provincia
Mugdornoram and Regio Mugdornorum. See Annas of Four Masters, A.D. 1457. The
Mugdorni were the descendants of Mugdorn Dubh, son of Colla Meann.

But this is just based on entries in traditional Irish genealogies. Here's
an example from Rawlinson B.502.

¶812] Cairpre Liphechair trá mac Cormaic trí mc leis .i. Eochaid & Eochu
Domplén & Fiachu Sraiptene senathair Néill & is fair do-rónsat mc a bráthar in
fingail .i. na trí Collae. Colla h- Uais a quo Úi Meich h-Uais, Colla Mend a
quo Mugdorna, Colla Fochríth a quo Úi Chremthaind eter dá loch.

This says basically that Caipre Liphechair, the son of Cormac, had three
sons, ie, Eochaidh and Eochu Domplen and Fiachu Sraiptine, the ancestor of Nial
'of the NIne Hostages.' Senathair is Irish for "old father," which can mean
literally "grandfather" or "ancestor of," depending on the context. In this
case it obviously means "ancestor of," since Nial was the great-grandson of
Fiachu Sraiptine.

Fiachu Sraiptine
Muiredach Tírech
Eochuid Mugmedón
Niall a quo Úi Néill

Eochu Domplen (father of the Three Collas, Colla Uais
Colla Meann, Colla da crioch).

You can find a whole series of stories in Keating's History on the CELT
site that describes the adventures of the Three Collas and O'Rahilly mentions
most of them in his "Early Irish History and Mythology."

One would think from this pedigree that the descendants of the Three
Collas (known collectively as the Airgialla) would be R1b1c7, as are the
descendants of Nial. But the major chieftains of the irish Airgialla, including
Maguire, McMahon and O'Hanlon, are not R1b1c7. The Trinity spreadsheet has DNA
samples for all three of these surnames and more (at least for Maguire and
McMahon) can be found in Ysearch. But the conclusion most have reached on their
DNA is not only do they not match the Ui Neill R1b1c7 but they furthermore
do not even match each other, giving the lie to their traditional common
descent. Trinity college obviously thought so as well. Despite having about 50
Airgialla samples in the spreadsheet database, they did not include a single
Airgialla surname in their lists of descendants of Nial.

Another interesting twist to the tale of the Three Collas is the origin
story of the Ui Maine in Connacht, said to descend from Colla da crioch (same
as Maguire and McMahon). But there is a very old pedigree for the Ui Maine in
Rawlinson B.502 which contains quite a different pedigree for them.

¶760] Dá mc Fiachach Sraiptene: Muiredach Tírech ocus Domnall a quo Úi Maine
Connacht secundum quosdam.

According to this, the Ui Maine of Connacht were descended from a Domnall,
son of Fiachach Sraiptene.

No one has as yet deduced the DNA of the Ui Maine of Connacht. The main
chieftain was O'Kelly and this surname is ubiquitous in Ireland. There are
few or no samples for the secondary chieftain, O'Madden. In the Trinity
database, about 10 Kellys are listed from Connacht. Only one of these is possibly
R1b1c7. That doesn't look promising, given the impressive statue of the
O'Kelly chieftains of Ui Maine.

As far as I know these are the only clans in Ireland said to descend from
Conn 'of the Hundred Battles' in Irish ms. Except for the Connachta, said to
descend from brothers of Nial. And of course the Ui Neill, direct
descendants of Nial himself.

It does appear true that the Connachta and Ui Neill shared a common
descent. Most of the Connachta clans do test R1b1c7 and many of these surnames are
listed incorrectly in the Trinity College list of descendants of Nial.
Most Irish historians do not believe the genealogies are literally correct in
assigning the Connachta to brothers of Nial (see O'Rahilly). But here at least
we see an element of truth preserved in DNA.

In my opinion, this is telling us the so called Nial DNA predates the time
of Nial himself. How far back it goes is an open question, not yet settled
by the DNA experts, although some (including John McEwen) think it may go
back thousands of years before the time of Nial (ca. 400 AD).

Prior to Conn 'of the Hundred Battles' in Irish ms. more Irish clans are
said to descend from this line. And if you go back far enough, even the Lagin
of Leinster and the Dal Riata of Scotland branch off somewhere from the stem
of Heremon in Irish genealogies. But none of this can be trusted as
authentic history. It's mythology, pure and simple, a concoction of Irish monks
determined to link every family in Ireland to sons of King Milesius or his uncle
Ith, an artificial genealogical scheme. If O'Rahilly accomplished anything
in his research it was to identify some of the more prominent Irish tribes
settled in Ireland at various dates from various places, including the Erainn,
Belgae, Cruithin, Lagin, Eoghanachta and Connachta, all of whom were said to
have arrived in Ireland at the exact same time thousands of years before
Christ with the arrival of the Milesians in Ireland.


John











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