DNA-R1B1C7-L ArchivesArchiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2007-08 > 1187043382
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] R1b1c7 in Scotland
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 18:16:22 EDT
Thanks. I agree that within the Milliken/Milligan study there are
variations, which to me might also reflect the system of surnaming used by extended
families and tenantry in parts of Scotland in the middle ages. What I am
primarily trying to measure is, allowing for the varying mutational rates over the
last 1000 years, how close would they be to these families 1000 years ago! I
appreciate that is a difficult question. It would help if you or someone else
on the list could try and calculate the rate of mutational change for the
Milliken/Milligans Group on my webpage, as this might provide a helpful
analysis between NW Ireland and Galloway. I personally don't have the expertise
required to use the various tools I have seen referred to on the list. As I see
it, the Milliken/Milligan DNA signatures fall within the R1b1c7 haplotype with
several already being confirmed. If the R1b1c7 haplotype is much older, as
has been suggested, than the Ui Neill modal, drawing comparisons with other
areas outside of Ireland might also demonstrate its age. To me, the only way to
really test all the theories being put about, is to test them with data
proved by a paper trail.
In general terms, some of the Milliken/Milligan results are fairly close to
the O'Doherty modal, what is unclear, is at what point they branch off from
the TMRCA. If there are older lines in Ireland and Scotland that predate the
Ui Neill modal, I think we need to show where the older ones turn up. So, lets
suppose we are truly dealing with a haplotype which is much older than say
AD 400, and it reaches beyond NW Ireland, where does it reach in Scotland or at
least in medieval Scotland? NW Ireland has an advantage. Although it
experienced a Scottish and English migration in the 1600s and earlier, when
surnames were more or less fixed, the native Irish managed to preserve their own
identity (give or take the odd mixed marriage here and there) through their
surnames. Most of the surnames sampled by the Trinity Dublin Team were native
Irish surnames, a shrewd move and a good one. It is perhaps no coincidence that
when the research team were looking at surnames, they choose names that also h
ad a known history attached to particular geographical areas. Unlike
Scotland, NW Ireland and arguably the island as whole, has a good set of genealogies
and annals, that Scotland can only envy. Finding surnames with a good paper
trail before 1500 whether in genealogies, annals, charters etc, is hard to
>From what I have seen so far, it is fair to say, the R1b1c7 haplotype is
strongly linked to those areas that form an arch between NW Ireland, the Isles,
Argyle and Galloway, with pockets turning up in other parts of Scotland. Lets
see if it is possible to isolate certain surnames attached to certain areas,
and see how far back they can be traced historically. We need good samples.
You have NW Ireland, I have Galloway, lets see if others can come on board
from other areas of interest. The aim being to see if we can isolate within the
R1b1c7 haplotype certain modals suited to certain geographically areas
backed up by a known historical paper trail. In Scotland it is very likely the
paper trail will be on the weak side.
Some more questions:
1. In all there are 14 "M" results. The 5 results with you say are closely
related, which ones do you mean?
2. What are the 2 results who are not closely related to the five mentioned
above, which do you mean?
3. Who are the 3 within the 5 who are more closely related?
In a message dated 13/08/2007 03:28:56 GMT Standard Time,
In a message dated 8/12/2007 4:13:20 P.M. Central Standard Time,
You'll note the Milliken/Milligans have at YCA11 = 19-23, the same as the
At DYS 458, the range various between 17 and 19.
All the Milliken/Milligans are consistent at DYS 447 = 25. This seems to
an important marker and fits the Ui Neill Modal. It is interesting that
O'Doherty's also fit this modal.
I looked at your latest Mullikin DNA samples. Again all I really see are
some family markers the Millikans share that most others don't.
Five of your samples show GATA H4 = 13; the same samples show DYS 389-2 =
30. Three of these five also share two other marker values in common - DYS
= 19; DYS 449 = 30. To me it looks like this group of five Millikans are
pretty closely related - but not to the other two Millikan samples on your
spreadsheet who share none of these marker values.
It looks to me like you have two separate Millikan DNA groups.
When I took your 2 Millikan samples outside of this group (both 37 markers)
I don't see anything that either ties them to any of the McLaughlins or
Dohertys or anything that says they could not descend from the same stock.
That's not much of an answer but it's the best I can do.