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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2007-08 > 1186686530


From: "Paul Conroy" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] R1b1c7 in Scotland
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 15:08:50 -0400
References: <e0d2d2870708090745y306f37adtc123a7ededeb51bb@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <e0d2d2870708090745y306f37adtc123a7ededeb51bb@mail.gmail.com>


David,

I'm saying depopulated - meaning a reduction in population from what it had
been - I didn't ever say all native Irish had been eliminated.

I'm not making a historical point, I'm just concerned with the genetics of
the remnant native Irish population - can we say it was representative of
the former? I'm not sure we can.

Cheers,
Paul


On 8/9/07, David Ewing <> wrote:
>
> Paul Conroy writes: "During the initial colonization of the NE of Ireland
> the land was depopulated..."
>
> Paul, are you talking about the 12th century Anglo-Norman colonization of
> NE
> Ireland? If so, you are mistaken. The Anglo-Normans relied on Irish
> tenants
> to work "their" lands. "In Ulster, only the coastal territory of Antrim
> and
> Down was partially brought into the new system by the daring of John de
> Courcy (1177). It was not an 'invasion' in the strict sense of the word,
> but
> the kind of individual and localised exploit already so common in Ireland,
> and de Courcy was quickly accepted as just another edlement in traditional
> dynastic feuding...There was displacement of native lords, notably in the
> Ards peninsula and Lecale...[t]hey did not, however, displace Irish
> tenants." Marianne Elliott, The Catholics of Ulster, pp26-27.
>
> Are you talking about the importation of Scottish mercenaries in the 13th
> century? They settled (mostly along the coast from the Foyle to the Glens
> of
> Antrim) among the native Irish and intermarried with them. Elliott p28.
>
> Are you talking about the Tudor re-conquest of Ireland and the Antrim
> plantation of the 1570s? These plantations had only limited success and
> never even got the native Irish fully under control, much less displaced
> them.
>
> Are you talking about the Ulster Plantations of James I? Antrim and Down
> were not part of the escheated lands and there were no plantations there.
> In
> each of the counties of Ulster that did have escheated lands, among the
> first grants of lands in 1611 were those for thousands of acres to Irish
> chiefs and clans that had remained "loyal." For a list of these grants,
> see
> Philip Robinson, The Plantation of Ulster, Appendices 3 and 4, pp199-205.
>
> In Ulster, "...the native Irish (both Gaelic and [Catholic] Old English)
> remained the majority landowners in the country until after the Irish
> rebellion of 1641. By the end of the resulting Cromwellian conquest of
> Ireland in the 1650s, the "New English" Protestants dominated the
> country..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tudor_re-conquest_of_Ireland
>
> When was it, exactly, that you think there were no Irish in Antrim and
> Down?
> And can you give a reference?
>
> David Ewing
>
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