DNA-R1B1C7-L Archives

Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2007-08 > 1186685904


From: "Paul Conroy" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] R1b1c7 in Scotland
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 14:58:24 -0400
References: <c4a.1a7d176c.33ebf8c1@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <c4a.1a7d176c.33ebf8c1@aol.com>


John,

I agree with your last paragraph, that much more research needs to be done
on R1b1c7 or M222+, not just in the well known locations of Ireland and
Scotland, but also the lesser well known ones like France and Germany, and
the potential ones like Spain, Belgium or Scandinavia - only then can we
fully analyze the STR's and see what haplotypes are shared in common and
where.

I also urge everyone to take the SNP test and determine accurately if you
are M222 or not - of course if you have the same STR values as a close
relative, this wouldn't be necessary. This way we can eliminate false
positives, which can arise due to convergence. For instance I myself have a
Genetic Distance (GD) from the R1b1c7 modal - as outlined here
http://www.m222.net/R1b1c7 - as follows:

12-markers - GD of 1
25-markers - GD of 5
37-markers - GD of 14

So I don't have the Ui Neill symbol on my FT DNA page, and it was only by
taking the SNP test that I could be sure I was R1b1c7.

Ideally some scientist out there would do a cluster analysis and break down
the R1b1c7 group into smaller clusters.

On the basic 12-markers I have a non-modal value of 391=10, rather than the
more familiar 11 - this is shared by 117 other FT DNA participants to date.
I attempted to do some basic analysis of these last names (surnames) and
decided to look at just those who appeared more than once - here are my
results:


TOTAL Ireland Scotland Wales England Campbell 2
2

Clark 3 3


Cowen 2
2

Ferguson 3
3

Garvin 2 2


Gavigan 2 2


Hannon 2 2


Jones 2

2
Martin 2 2


McFadden 2 2


McGovern 3 3


McKenzie 2
2

O'Brien 2 2


O'Neill 2 2


O'Reilly 11 11


Pierce 2


2 Wilson 2
2







n 46 31 11 2 2 % 100 67 24 4 4

Note: One of those Campbells is Sir Islay Campbell - chief of Clan Campbell
- unfortunately he only has 12-markers listed, so I don't know if I match on
more than this.

Conclusion:
About 2/3 of my matches are Irish, 1/4 are Scottish, 1/20 are Welsh and 1/20
are English - though for some names, there might be disagreement as to
origin.

My own family name Conroy is an offshoot of the Dunne family of the
Laois/Offaly border area, which are allegedly descended from the Southern
O'Neill of the Kingdom of Mide (modern day Meath, Westmeath and some of
Armagh). This kingdom would border the old kingdom of Breifne -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breifne - which was ruled over by the O'Rourkes
and the O'Reillys mostly. Coincidentally I have 11 O'Reilly matches or
almost 1/4 of the total.

Hope this adds a few more data points to the research.

Cheers,
Paul


On 8/9/07, < > wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 8/8/2007 10:35:58 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> writes:
>
> Professor David H. Kelley, PhD, FASG in "Early Irish Genealogy" in The
> American Genealogist April 1965 writes: "it would not be surprising to
> find that
> some of the pedigrees are substantially accurate perhaps to 400 B.C
> ., although
> others are clearly inaccurate at much later dates [page 71]."
>
>
>
> Kelley's analysis seems to follow O'Rahilly pretty closely. I doubt
> there's much more that can be said about this line of Irish kings
> than what you've
> presented here. Everyone concentrates on Nial but Tuathal Teachtmar is
> probably the earliest known authentic ancestor of the Ui Neill
> in Ireland. So I
> think you're right to concentrate on him.
>
> The following are some notes I took from O'Rahilly's analysis of Tuathal
> Teachtmar.
>
> Who were the Ui Neill?
>
> The story of the tribe that later became the Ui Neill did not begin
> with
> Nial 'of the Nine Hostages', who died sometime in the 5th century A.D.,
> but
> with an earlier ancestor named Tuathal Teachtmar, who appears in
> the pedigrees
> some nine generations earlier. As an historical statement the pedigree
> is
> untrustworthy. Cuinn Chetchathaich (Conn 'of the Hundred Battles'), a
> mythological personage, appears as Tuathal's grandson. The
> other intervening names,
> with the exception of Nial's father, Echach Mugmedoin, are unreliable as
> well. Yet popular tradition in Ireland has always credited Tuathal
> Teachtmar
> with being the invasion leader of a group of Gaels who invaded Ireland
> and
> conquered the Aithechthuatha, or vassal tribes of non-goidelic origin in
> Ireland.
> So says O'Rahilly (Early Irish History and Mythology).
>
> Rawlinson B.502
>
> Néill Noígiallaig m. Echach (.i. Mugmedóin) m. Muiredaich (.i. Tírich) m.
> Fiachach Sraptene m. Cairpri Liphechair m. Cormaic Ulfhota m. Airtt
> Óenfhir m.
> Cuinn Chétchathaich m. Feideilmid Rechtada m. Tuathail Techtmair.
>
> The earliest source on Tuathal's conquest of Ireland is a poem by Mael
> Mura of Othain (d. 887), who placed Tuathal's death at either 135 or 235
> A.D.
> (manuscript copies differ). According to Mael Mura, Tuathal Teachtmar
> came to
> Ireland to quell a revolt of the Aithechthuatha. The poem tells
> us nothing of
> Tuathal's early life but simply states he came to claim his heritage,
> implying an Irish descent and exile. In this endeavor he was joined
> by Fiachra
> Cassan (of Ireland), his brother Findamail, and 600 men. Tuathal fought
> and won
> battles with the vassal tribes of the four provinces. He then assembled
> the
> conquered kings of the provinces at Tara and made them swear to be loyal
> to
> his race forever.
>
> Later versions present Tuathal Teachtmar as an exile from Ireland. In
> the
> tract the Borama (Book of Leinster, c. 1170) Tuathal's father and
> grandfather are said to have been slain in Ireland by
> the Aithechthuatha. Another
> account in the same ms. says all the seed of Ugaine Mor in Ireland were
> slain by
> the Aithechthuatha except for Tuathal. His mother took him to Fiachra
> Cassan, who saved his life, and later sent him to Scotland to raise an
> army to
> regain his lost kingdom in Ireland. In yet another version, Tuathal's
> mother
> fled to Scotland and there gave birth. Twenty years later he returned
> with two
> ships, landing at Malahide Bay in Co. Dublin.
>
> O'Rahilly has this to say about the legends of Tuathal Teachtmar:
>
> "The genuine tradition concerning Tuathal told how he had led the
> ancestors
> of the Midland Goidels to Ireland, and how had had overcome the
> non-goidelic
> tribes who had hitherto ruled the country, and who henceforth were to be
> vassals (aithechthuatha) of the Goidels. But the pseudo-historians and
> genealogists, who would give no countenance to a late date for the
> Goidelic invasion,
> insisted that Tuathal was an Irishman and was descended from a long line
> of
> Irish ancestors; and so in its accepted literary form the legend
> no longer
> represents Tuthal as a foreigner invading Ireland for the first time,
> but treats
> him as the rightful heir to the Irish throne who comes to Ireland
> to recover
> his patrimony, of which he has been deprived by the aithechthuatha."
>
> Although the legends surrounding Tuathal Teachtmar describe him as a
> returning exile (Mael Mura) from Alba (Scotland), O'Rahilly believes
> Tuathal
> Teachtmar came to Ireland directly from Gaul.
>
> "Regarding the earlier home of the Goidels a few words must suffice on the
>
> present occasion. If anything is certain about them, it is that
> the Goidels
> reached Ireland direct from the Continent, notwithstanding
> Rhys's unsupported
> theorizings to the contrary. For more reasons than one we cannot accept
> the
> 'learned' Irish view that they came form Spain; hence they must have come
> to
> Ireland from Gaul. Several pieces of evidence, which we need not now
> discuss, unite in suggesting that the Goidels were connected with the
> south-east of
> Gaul, and it is there, too, that we have found the Quariates, a tribe of
> Q-Celts, located. We must suppose that, before sailing to Ireland, a
> body of
> Q-Celts first migrated from south-east Gaul to the western coast, just as
> the
> Helvetii and other tribes tried to do in 58 B.C. The most likely cause
> of such
> a wholesale migration would have been the pressure of neighbouring
> enemies,
> whether these enemies were fellow-Celts or Romans or Germans. If (which
> is
> not certain) the Continental Goidels were settled within the area which
> became
> the Roman province of Gallia Narbonensis, their migration to the western
> coast must have taken place not later than 120 B.C. If any event the
> Goidels
> must have left Gaul before 50 B.C., when the rest of the country was
> finally
> subjected to Roman rule."
>
>
> There isn't anything I can add to O'Rahilly's discussion of Tuathal
> Teachtmar. He's sure (for some reason) that Tuathal came to Ireland
> directly from
> Gaul. I'm not so sure myself. The legends portray him as a returning
> exile
> from Scotland. Or in their oldest versions, one who came to Ireland
> from
> Scotland for the first time. I wonder why O'Rahilly never considered the
>
> possibility that Tuathal himself might have been born in Scotland? In
> every
> other case of "exile and return" O'Rahilly considers this proof of a
> first time
> entry into Ireland, disguised by the Irish scribes intent on linking all
> Irishmen together as Milesian. Yet in the case of Tuathal he ignores
> this
> possibility in favor of an origin in Gaul.
>
> O'Rahillly also makes this statement which he never fully explains:
>
> "Several pieces of evidence, which we need not now discuss, unite in
> suggesting that the Goidels were connected with the south-east
> of Gaul...."
>
> O'Rahilly's grand theory on the goidels is not just about
> the northerners.
> He lumps them together with the Eoghanacta of Munster as goidelic tribes
> who came to Ireland at about the same time from Gaul. This is the
> two-pronged
> invasion modal of O'Rahilly. He seems to regard the two tribes as
> somehow
> linked with a common origin in Gaul. He never says as much directly but
> never makes a distinction between northern or southern goidels
> either. Perhaps
> he thought a common language (goidelic or Q-Celtic) was enough proof they
> were
> related. I don't think any modern linguists buy into this aspect of
> O'Rahilly's theories.
>
> Now we know from DNA that the Eoghanachta of Munster and the UI Neill
> (R1b1c7) are completely different tribes and never should have been
> linked as
> O'Rahilly did. So one has to wonder as well whether his
> "evidence" applied to
> one tribe or the other. Perhaps his "evidence" only pertained to the
> Eoghanachta.
>
> So I would ask the DNA experts: Is there any chance R1b1c7 originated
> in
> Scotland rather than in Ireland? The DNA experts seem united in their
> opposition to an origin in Gaul for R1b1c7 (per O'Rahilly). Could the
> Ui Neill in
> Ireland have been a spectacularly successful offshoot of a relatively
> minor
> or at least unidentified tribe in Scotland? Where are the oldest
> haplotypes
> to be found? Or the greatest amount of STR diversity. Ireland or
> Scotland?
>
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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