DNA-R1B1C7-L Archives

Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2007-08 > 1186670706


From: "David Ewing" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] R1b1c7 in Scotland
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 08:45:06 -0600


Paul Conroy writes: "During the initial colonization of the NE of Ireland
the land was depopulated..."

Paul, are you talking about the 12th century Anglo-Norman colonization of NE
Ireland? If so, you are mistaken. The Anglo-Normans relied on Irish tenants
to work "their" lands. "In Ulster, only the coastal territory of Antrim and
Down was partially brought into the new system by the daring of John de
Courcy (1177). It was not an 'invasion' in the strict sense of the word, but
the kind of individual and localised exploit already so common in Ireland,
and de Courcy was quickly accepted as just another edlement in traditional
dynastic feuding...There was displacement of native lords, notably in the
Ards peninsula and Lecale...[t]hey did not, however, displace Irish
tenants." Marianne Elliott, The Catholics of Ulster, pp26-27.

Are you talking about the importation of Scottish mercenaries in the 13th
century? They settled (mostly along the coast from the Foyle to the Glens of
Antrim) among the native Irish and intermarried with them. Elliott p28.

Are you talking about the Tudor re-conquest of Ireland and the Antrim
plantation of the 1570s? These plantations had only limited success and
never even got the native Irish fully under control, much less displaced
them.

Are you talking about the Ulster Plantations of James I? Antrim and Down
were not part of the escheated lands and there were no plantations there. In
each of the counties of Ulster that did have escheated lands, among the
first grants of lands in 1611 were those for thousands of acres to Irish
chiefs and clans that had remained "loyal." For a list of these grants, see
Philip Robinson, The Plantation of Ulster, Appendices 3 and 4, pp199-205.

In Ulster, "...the native Irish (both Gaelic and [Catholic] Old English)
remained the majority landowners in the country until after the Irish
rebellion of 1641. By the end of the resulting Cromwellian conquest of
Ireland in the 1650s, the "New English" Protestants dominated the
country..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tudor_re-conquest_of_Ireland

When was it, exactly, that you think there were no Irish in Antrim and Down?
And can you give a reference?

David Ewing

This thread: