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From:
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] R1b1c7 in Scotland
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 00:57:37 EDT



In a message dated 8/8/2007 10:35:58 P.M. Central Standard Time,
writes:

Professor David H. Kelley, PhD, FASG in "Early Irish Genealogy" in The
American Genealogist April 1965 writes: "it would not be surprising to find that
some of the pedigrees are substantially accurate perhaps to 400 B.C., although
others are clearly inaccurate at much later dates [page 71]."



Kelley's analysis seems to follow O'Rahilly pretty closely. I doubt
there's much more that can be said about this line of Irish kings than what you've
presented here. Everyone concentrates on Nial but Tuathal Teachtmar is
probably the earliest known authentic ancestor of the Ui Neill in Ireland. So I
think you're right to concentrate on him.

The following are some notes I took from O'Rahilly's analysis of Tuathal
Teachtmar.

Who were the Ui Neill?

The story of the tribe that later became the Ui Neill did not begin with
Nial 'of the Nine Hostages', who died sometime in the 5th century A.D., but
with an earlier ancestor named Tuathal Teachtmar, who appears in the pedigrees
some nine generations earlier. As an historical statement the pedigree is
untrustworthy. Cuinn Chetchathaich (Conn 'of the Hundred Battles'), a
mythological personage, appears as Tuathal's grandson. The other intervening names,
with the exception of Nial's father, Echach Mugmedoin, are unreliable as
well. Yet popular tradition in Ireland has always credited Tuathal Teachtmar
with being the invasion leader of a group of Gaels who invaded Ireland and
conquered the Aithechthuatha, or vassal tribes of non-goidelic origin in Ireland.
So says O'Rahilly (Early Irish History and Mythology).

Rawlinson B.502

Néill Noígiallaig m. Echach (.i. Mugmedóin) m. Muiredaich (.i. Tírich) m.
Fiachach Sraptene m. Cairpri Liphechair m. Cormaic Ulfhota m. Airtt Óenfhir m.
Cuinn Chétchathaich m. Feideilmid Rechtada m. Tuathail Techtmair.

The earliest source on Tuathal's conquest of Ireland is a poem by Mael
Mura of Othain (d. 887), who placed Tuathal's death at either 135 or 235 A.D.
(manuscript copies differ). According to Mael Mura, Tuathal Teachtmar came to
Ireland to quell a revolt of the Aithechthuatha. The poem tells us nothing of
Tuathal's early life but simply states he came to claim his heritage,
implying an Irish descent and exile. In this endeavor he was joined by Fiachra
Cassan (of Ireland), his brother Findamail, and 600 men. Tuathal fought and won
battles with the vassal tribes of the four provinces. He then assembled the
conquered kings of the provinces at Tara and made them swear to be loyal to
his race forever.

Later versions present Tuathal Teachtmar as an exile from Ireland. In the
tract the Borama (Book of Leinster, c. 1170) Tuathal's father and
grandfather are said to have been slain in Ireland by the Aithechthuatha. Another
account in the same ms. says all the seed of Ugaine Mor in Ireland were slain by
the Aithechthuatha except for Tuathal. His mother took him to Fiachra
Cassan, who saved his life, and later sent him to Scotland to raise an army to
regain his lost kingdom in Ireland. In yet another version, Tuathal's mother
fled to Scotland and there gave birth. Twenty years later he returned with two
ships, landing at Malahide Bay in Co. Dublin.

O'Rahilly has this to say about the legends of Tuathal Teachtmar:

"The genuine tradition concerning Tuathal told how he had led the ancestors
of the Midland Goidels to Ireland, and how had had overcome the non-goidelic
tribes who had hitherto ruled the country, and who henceforth were to be
vassals (aithechthuatha) of the Goidels. But the pseudo-historians and
genealogists, who would give no countenance to a late date for the Goidelic invasion,
insisted that Tuathal was an Irishman and was descended from a long line of
Irish ancestors; and so in its accepted literary form the legend no longer
represents Tuthal as a foreigner invading Ireland for the first time, but treats
him as the rightful heir to the Irish throne who comes to Ireland to recover
his patrimony, of which he has been deprived by the aithechthuatha."

Although the legends surrounding Tuathal Teachtmar describe him as a
returning exile (Mael Mura) from Alba (Scotland), O'Rahilly believes Tuathal
Teachtmar came to Ireland directly from Gaul.

"Regarding the earlier home of the Goidels a few words must suffice on the
present occasion. If anything is certain about them, it is that the Goidels
reached Ireland direct from the Continent, notwithstanding Rhys's unsupported
theorizings to the contrary. For more reasons than one we cannot accept the
'learned' Irish view that they came form Spain; hence they must have come to
Ireland from Gaul. Several pieces of evidence, which we need not now
discuss, unite in suggesting that the Goidels were connected with the south-east of
Gaul, and it is there, too, that we have found the Quariates, a tribe of
Q-Celts, located. We must suppose that, before sailing to Ireland, a body of
Q-Celts first migrated from south-east Gaul to the western coast, just as the
Helvetii and other tribes tried to do in 58 B.C. The most likely cause of such
a wholesale migration would have been the pressure of neighbouring enemies,
whether these enemies were fellow-Celts or Romans or Germans. If (which is
not certain) the Continental Goidels were settled within the area which became
the Roman province of Gallia Narbonensis, their migration to the western
coast must have taken place not later than 120 B.C. If any event the Goidels
must have left Gaul before 50 B.C., when the rest of the country was finally
subjected to Roman rule."


There isn't anything I can add to O'Rahilly's discussion of Tuathal
Teachtmar. He's sure (for some reason) that Tuathal came to Ireland directly from
Gaul. I'm not so sure myself. The legends portray him as a returning exile
from Scotland. Or in their oldest versions, one who came to Ireland from
Scotland for the first time. I wonder why O'Rahilly never considered the
possibility that Tuathal himself might have been born in Scotland? In every
other case of "exile and return" O'Rahilly considers this proof of a first time
entry into Ireland, disguised by the Irish scribes intent on linking all
Irishmen together as Milesian. Yet in the case of Tuathal he ignores this
possibility in favor of an origin in Gaul.

O'Rahillly also makes this statement which he never fully explains:

"Several pieces of evidence, which we need not now discuss, unite in
suggesting that the Goidels were connected with the south-east of Gaul...."

O'Rahilly's grand theory on the goidels is not just about the northerners.
He lumps them together with the Eoghanacta of Munster as goidelic tribes
who came to Ireland at about the same time from Gaul. This is the two-pronged
invasion modal of O'Rahilly. He seems to regard the two tribes as somehow
linked with a common origin in Gaul. He never says as much directly but
never makes a distinction between northern or southern goidels either. Perhaps
he thought a common language (goidelic or Q-Celtic) was enough proof they were
related. I don't think any modern linguists buy into this aspect of
O'Rahilly's theories.

Now we know from DNA that the Eoghanachta of Munster and the UI Neill
(R1b1c7) are completely different tribes and never should have been linked as
O'Rahilly did. So one has to wonder as well whether his "evidence" applied to
one tribe or the other. Perhaps his "evidence" only pertained to the
Eoghanachta.

So I would ask the DNA experts: Is there any chance R1b1c7 originated in
Scotland rather than in Ireland? The DNA experts seem united in their
opposition to an origin in Gaul for R1b1c7 (per O'Rahilly). Could the Ui Neill in
Ireland have been a spectacularly successful offshoot of a relatively minor
or at least unidentified tribe in Scotland? Where are the oldest haplotypes
to be found? Or the greatest amount of STR diversity. Ireland or Scotland?


John









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