DNA-R1B1C7-L ArchivesArchiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2007-08 > 1186630114
From: JOHN PLUMMER <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] R1b1c7 in Scotland
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 20:28:34 -0700 (PDT)
I believe the difference between Oppenheimer's Ruy and Rox is a genetic distance of 1 on one marker. But that still can be significant - unless a random STR mutation obscures the pattern.
Could you send me that text copy of the Ewen Campbell report if it is not too much trouble. I have my own revision of R1b1c7
Professor David H. Kelley, PhD, FASG in "Early Irish Genealogy" in The American Genealogist April 1965 writes: "it would not be surprising to find that some of the pedigrees are substantially accurate perhaps to 400 B.C., although others are clearly inaccurate at much later dates [page 71]."
Kelley states, "The Kings of Tara, from whom the later high kings of Ireland claimed descent, cannot be regarded as adequately established prior to Eochaid Mugmedon....["The Claimed Irish Origin of Clan Munro" in The American Genealogist April 1969 page 75] But he seems to provisionally give some credence to the oral pedigrees for another 8 generations. He says, "I think that few scholars today would defend their authenticity prior to Tuathal Techtmar, who is said to have led an invasion of Ireland to "reclaim" his ancestral rights, probably actually to establish a new dynasty [ibid.]."
1. Tuathal Techtmar. Extrapolating Kelley's chronology he would have probably flourished shortly before 250 AD. I now believe that he most probably came from the area abandoned by the Romans in 163 AD between Hadrian's Wall and the Antonine Wall. Dunbarton may well have been part of his home territory as well. I believe he was very likely the namesake and ancestor in a female line of Tudwal born about a century after Tuathal's floruit in this intramural area. Tudwal interacted with the historic Saint Ninian of the late 4th and early 5th centuries. (But some recent scholars suggest St. Ninian & Tudwal flourished in the early 6th century). In A Welsh Classical Dictionary page 624 Peter Clement Bartrum equates Tuathal, Tothal, Tudwal, and Tuduvallus. O'Rahilly accepts that Tuathal's conquests "must have been in Brega, which adjoined the coast, and which included Tara [Early Irish History and Mythology page 167]. Perhaps they extended to the nearby Drumanagh. John
Haywood's Atlas of the Celtic World says, "Excavations of a very large promontory fort here have produced evidence of frequent contacts with the Roman world [page 84]."
2. Fedelmid Rechtaid "The Law Giver," who I would equate with Oilill Olum "remembered for his faithfull adherence to the law," and with Eochaid "the husband of Aine."
3. Conn Cetchathach ("of the Hundred Battles). Kelly says, "living about 300 A.D. or slightly earlier, if historical; regarded as a renowned conqueror in native tradition and as a deity by O'Rahilly." The formulaic "of the 100 Battles" is also found among the Picts. Drust is said to have fought a hundred battles. I would equate Conn with Cian. The territory of the Ciannachta was just north of Brega. Cian or Cein had a Pictish style pedigree being given as son of Guorcein, son of Doli, son of Guordoli, son of Dyfwn, son of Gurdumn. W. A. Cummins in Appendix 3 to his The Age of the Picts discusses these doublets without coming to a definitive answer. If a few matrilinearly determined Pictish rulers are spliced into the pedigree of Cian, then perhaps Conn descends through his mother from Dyfwn or Dumn. This is cognate with Domnail as in MacDonald and perhaps with the tribal names Damnoni etc. The Damnoni are found between Hadrians Wall and the Antonine Wall. The
Domnainn are believe to have lived not too far south of Tara (see the map on page 15 of Atlas of Irish History by Sean Duffy et al). Saraid the daughter of Conn is said to be the mother of Cairbre Riada. Sounds a bit like Pictish succession. Also Conn is said to have had a brother Eochaid Cochoth Fionn who married Alphea daughter of Alpin, King of the Picts.
4. Artt Oenfer.
5. Cormac Ulfota. Kelley says, "traditionally the greatest of the pre-Christian kings of Tara, probably ruling about 350 A.D. if historical (said to have married Ethne, daughter of Cathaer Mar, King of Leinster)."
6. Cairpre Liphechair, "Lover of the Liffey" The Liffey River flows just south of Tara, by present day Dublin.
7. Fiachu Sraiptine. The pedigrees give him a brother Eochu/Eochaid Domlen ("Dublin.")
8. Muiredach Tirech
9. Eochaid Mugmedon, High King of Ireland. Kelly says, "Carried off a British woman, Carina (Irish Cairenn), mother of Niall." Mugmedon means "slaves lord," after slave trading raids on Roman Britain.
10. Niall of the Nine Hostages, High King in Ireland 445-453, died 453, per James Carney's revised chronology in his Studies in Irish Literature and History.
In a message dated 8/7/2007 11:32:58 A.M. Central Standard Time,
The problem with this argument is that it completely fails to account for
the fact that M222 or R1b1c7 has a time to most recent common ancestor TMRCA
of 1,730 years ago (SD 670), so less than 2,000 years ago - so how do you
account for the fact that 2 countries have this same haplogroup AND many of
the the same haplotypes too?? The only way for this to happen is for one
founding population to be spread over 2 countries.
I don't really have a scenario. I just doubt that the legendary migration
from Antrim to Dal Riata in Scotland had anything to do with the presence of
R1b1c7 in Scotland. But R1b1c7 isn't just confined to Ireland and Scotland.
We also see it in England, especially in the northern border regions. And it
appears as strong in eastern, lowland parts of Scotland as it does in
western Scotland. There are even few debatable R1b1c7 samples from the continent.
The experts say R1b1c7 originated in Ireland. Maybe it did. But if so
then I think it found it's way to England and Scotland long before the supposed
founding date of the Scottish Dal Riata.
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|Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] R1b1c7 in Scotland by JOHN PLUMMER <>|