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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2007-08 > 1186519466


From: "Richard" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] R1b1c7 in Scotland
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 16:44:26 -0400
References: <001501c7d932$9feba040$6401a8c0@Packard>


Richard B. Hare: Right on for that bit. Same goes for my first 3-4 generations. Maybe we Americans are more aggressive?
Richard A. Ashley
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard B. Hare
To:
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] R1b1c7 in Scotland


Heck, the first three generations of our family in the US had 12-16 children
each. We could have done it ourselves!

-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Paul Conroy
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 4:05 PM
To:
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] R1b1c7 in Scotland

BTW, in case anyone here finds it hard to believe that the progeny of a
small band of Irish warriors, who formed the ruling elite of many clans in
Scotland could have produced more than their expected number of descendants,
you just need to read today's New York Times article on a similar issue:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/07/science/07indu.html?8dpc=&_r=1&adxnnl=1&or
ef=slogin&pagewanted=all&adxnnlx=1186516391-W+1e+yJUPpwbEZqUCA1vdg

Where Dr Clark makes the same case for the elite of Medieval England, where
he states:

> Generation after generation, the rich had more surviving children than the
> poor, his research showed. That meant there must have been constant
downward
> social mobility as the poor failed to reproduce themselves and the progeny
> of the rich took over their occupations. "The modern population of the
> English is largely descended from the economic upper classes of the Middle
> Ages," he concluded.
>

In much of Scotland and parts of Britain in the Middle Ages, the economic
upper classes were entirely of Irish descent. So there is no need to
postulate a massive migration from Ireland to Scotland, or indeed will any
such archaeological evidence be forthcoming.

Cheers,
Paul
R1b1c7 & M222+


On 8/7/07, Paul Conroy <> wrote:
>
> John,
>
> The problem with this argument is that it completely fails to account for
> the fact that M222 or R1b1c7 has a time to most recent common ancestor
TMRCA
> of 1,730 years ago (SD 670), so less than 2,000 years ago - so how do you
> account for the fact that 2 countries have this same haplogroup AND many
of
> the the same haplotypes too?? The only way for this to happen is for one
> founding population to be spread over 2 countries.
>
> We know that elite dominance by a small warrior group can spread a
> language and culture over a much larger substrate population - examples
are
> Turks in Turkey, Magyars in Hungary. We also know that an elites - via
> wealth and power - can spread their genes faster than commoners in a given
> population. So we should expect a greater percentage of descendants of
past
> elites in the current population. Thence a smallish warrior band could
over
> a centuary or two change the language and culture of a population, and
over
> a millenium or two change much of the population too.
>
> For your scenario to be correct, the convergence date for R1b1c7 would
> have to be thousands of years older - so that the 2 populations would have
> similar haplogroups - i.e. M222 - and many dissimilar haplotypes.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Paul
>
>
> On 8/6/07, <> wrote:
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 8/6/2007 9:25:37 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> > writes:
> >
> > Let's look at this simply, there are legends of migration of Irish to
> > Western Britain, there is DNA evidence to back this up (R1b1c7), there
> > is
> > cultural and linguistic evidence to back this up (Gaelic culture and
> > language, rather than Pictish matrilinial culture and language). There
> > have
> > been some migrations of Scots to Ireland, MacDonalds, some Gallowglass
> > families and recently colonization of NE Ireland - however all these
> > were
> > over a millenium AFTER the establishment of Irish Gaelic kingdoms in
> > Scotland.
> >
> >
> >
> > That's why you should read the Campbell article. He turns all of
> > this on
> > it's head, including the cultural and linguistic evidence. As far as
> > I know
> > his theories, especially the linguistic theories, have not
> > gained wide-spread
> > acceptance among scholars. But they're also fairly recent (2001).
> >
> > Linguistic evidence
> >
> > Linguistic evidence thus seems to provide the
> > securest evidence for invasion by Gaels, and
> > as we have seen, seems to have influenced his-
> > torians and archaeologists to accept the theory
> > even though they themselves have little evi-
> > dence to support it. The presence of Gaelic
> > speakers in early medieval Argyll is undoubted.
> > Adomnon, writing in Argyll in the late 7th cen-
> > tury, inhabits an entirely Gaelic world: all the
> > placenames and personal names referred to in
> > Argyll are Gaelic; the people of Argyll are 'the
> > Scotti in Britain', and he comments that Columba
> > needed translators when he travelled to Pictish
> > areas (Sharpe 1995: 32). In addition, the mod-
> > ern placenames of Argyll are all of Goidelic
> > origin, in contrast to eastern Scotland where
> > there is a substantial Brittonic substratum, even
> > if many were adopted by later Gaelic speakers
> > (Nicholaisen 1976; Taylor 1994). Yet Pictish was
> > replaced by Gaelic as the language of eastern
> > Scotland only a few hundred years after
> > Adomnan, so we would expect to see some
> > Brittonic substratum in the placenames of Ar-
> > gyll. The traditional explanation is that origi-
> > nal Brittonic speakers were totally displaced
> > by Gaelic speaking settlers, removing all evi-
> > dence of Brittonic settlement and landscape
> > names. Such a complete obliteration without
> > substantial population movement, which, as
> > we have seen, is archaeologically invisible,
> > would be almost unparalleled in onomastic
> > history.
> >
> > What is the evidence for this, other than the
> > historical accounts of an invasion from Ireland?
> > The only evidence for the language spoken in
> > Argyll before the early medieval period is
> > Ptolemy's Geography written in the early 2nd
> > century. This locates the tribe of the Epidii, and
> > a peninsula called Epidion Akron, on the west
> > coast of Scotland, in an area generally equated
> > with Kintyre (Rivet & Smith 1979: 360-61).
> > Epidii is P-Celtic, and therefore by implication
> > this area was inhabited by Brittonic speakers.
> > Apart from the dangers of relying on a single
> > word to support a hypothesis of an entire lan-
> > guage, there are good reasons for questioning
> > this evidence. Ptolemy's source for his Scot-
> > tish names was probably from the Scottish
> > Central Lowlands, and may have transmitted
> > the Brittonic form of a Goidelic tribal name, or
> > even the external name given to the tribe by
> > Brittonic speakers. Before the rapid divergence
> > of Goidelic and Brittonic in the centuries around
> > the collapse of the Roman Empire there may
> > have been a much less homogenous pattern of
> > language than we assume for the later periods.
> > In support of this it is interesting that the
> > P-Celtic tribal name Menapii appears in Ptolemy's
> > list of tribes in Ireland itself, and that several
> > peoples of northern Ireland were known
> > as Cruithin, Goidelic for 'British', but these peo-
> > ples are accepted as being Goidelic speakers,
> > and no 'British invasion' of Ireland is now pos-
> > tulated on the basis of this evidence (Toner
> > 2000: 73). The only reason the name Epidii is used
> > as evidence for invasion is that it appeared to
> > support the historical evidence, which we have
> > seen is unreliable. The traditional view seems
> > inherently unlikely, based as it is on the evi-
> > dence of a single word, and a simpler model is
> > proposed below.
> >
> > While no-one disputes that a divergence
> > between Goidelic and Brittonic took place, and
> > that Goidelic retains the most archaic features
> > of the Celtic language group, the question is
> > where the original 'fault-line' between the two
> > is to be placed. In their interpretation, linguists
> > have tended to be guided by the historical para-
> > digm in their explanations of language change
> > in western Britain (FIGURE 1A). More subtly, I
> > believe they have been affected by a
> > geographical viewpoint which is based on
> > a modern perceptions of communications and
> > polities which sees 'Scotland' and 'Ireland' as independent
> > geographical units. Thus, the Irish Sea and North
> > Channel have come to be seen as the dividing
> > line between Gael and Briton, only to be crossed
> > by invasion. This view was not shared by early
> > medieval commentators, who saw the divid-
> > ing line as Druim Albin, the 'Spine of Britain'
> > (the Grampian Highlands) being the linguistic
> > barrier. It should not surprise 11s that the High-
> > lands were a communications barrier. There are
> > only two or three narrow routeways through
> > the Highland massif, each involving several days
> > travel on foot. It is easy to see how linguistic
> > differentiation could take place when the peo-
> > ples on either side of this barrier were only in
> > sporadic communication. On the west coast
> > however, most of Argyll is no more than a day's
> > sail from Ireland, and at closest the distance
> > between Argyll and Ireland is only 20 kilome-
> > tres. There is abundant evidence to show that
> > early medieval Argyll was a sea-based society
> > (Bannerman 1974; Campbell 1999). In this con-
> > text the North Channel can be seen as a link-
> > ing mechanism rather than the dividing one
> > envisaged in the concept of the 'sea-divided
> > Gael' (O'Rahilly 1932: 123). The islands of
> > Rathlin and Tiree are respectively 20 km and
> > 100 km from mainland Argyll, though Rathlin
> > is today officially in Ireland, and Tiree in Scot-
> > land. Both are clearly part of one archipelago
> > where good sea communications would enable
> > the same language to continue to be spoken and
> > develop in tandem. Further south, the much
> > wider Irish Sea would have made daily com-
> > munication more difficult, and the 'fault line'
> > could have lain between Ireland and mainland
> > England and Wales (FIGURE 1B).
> >
> > An alternative view
> >
> > To summarize, if there was a mass migration
> > from Ireland to Scotland, there should be some
> > sign of this in the archaeological record, but
> > there is none. If there was only an elite takeo-
> > ver by a warband, who must have adopted lo-
> > cal material culture and settlement forms, there
> > should be signs of the language of the native
> > majority in the placenames, but again there is
> > none. A purely dynastic takeover would not
> > have led to language change on the scale seen,
> > and has no clear historical backing. My read-
> > ing of the archaeological, historical and linguistic
> > evidence is radically different from the tradi-
> > tional account, but much simpler.
> >
> > I suggest that the people inhabiting Argyll
> > maintained a regional identity from at least the
> > Iron Age through to the medieval period and
> > that throughout this period they were Gaelic
> > speakers.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new
> > AOL at
> > http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
> >
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