DNA-R1B1C7-L ArchivesArchiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2007-08 > 1186367789
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] R1b1c7 in Scotland
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 22:36:29 EDT
In a message dated 8/5/2007 11:09:51 A.M. Central Standard Time,
Some excerpts: "Whether called the Irish Modal Haplotype or the "Ui Neill
Haplotype" as in the Trinity College paper9, the North-West Haplotype by David
Wilson and fellow researchers10, or R1bSTR19Irish as defined by McEwan
(2007),11 this corresponds to OGAP8 in the Oxford data."
I think I'd prefer to defer to the DNA experts on that question. But I have
to say this is a pretty wimpy collection of markers. And it doesn't even
include the most definitive Ui Neill or NW Irish marker of all (DYS 392 = 14).
Could R1b1c7 have come to Scotland and Argyll from NE Ireland with the Dal
Riata? That seems to be another assumption everyone bases their theories on.
But there are several drawbacks to that theory, not the least of which is
that traditional irish pedigrees link the Scottish Dal Riata to the Erainn of
Ireland. Factor in also the fact that R1b1c7 is not dominant in NE Ireland.
In fact it's hardly to be found except in Scottish settlers of comparatively
recent vintage. It's clustered strongly in the NW of Ireland and Connacht.
If you follow Ewan Campbell's theories then there was no historical
invasion or migration of irish Gaels to Scotland in the early 6th century. In fact
he shows the archeological evidence shows the influence is just as likely to
have gone from Scotland to Ireland and there is no evidence of any kind of
mass migration to Argyll as described in the Shenchus Fer nAlban. His theory
is that as the Gaels living on the west side of the mountains in Scotland
eventually gained political control of all of Scotland, the Irish scribes simply
invented a pedigree for the Dal Riata kings and made up an origin story to
go along with it (ie, Fergus Mor, Angus and Loarn, the sons of Erc of the
Irish Dal Riata, went to Scotland). Other archeologists point to the
possibility of an "elite" takeover from Ireland which would not have disturbed the
My purpose here is not to defend Campbell's theories. But one should be
aware that at least one maverick archeologist has a radically different view
about the aboriginal population of Argyll and the Scottish Dal Riata. One of
Campbell's main selling points is the earliest version of the Dal Riata story
in manuscript (Bede's History of England - 673-735). Bede states the a
certain Reuda was the first to settle in Scotland from Ireland. And this name is
clearly meant to be eponymous (Reuda = Riata). We can find a trace of this
name in the old Irish pedigrees for the Irish Dal Riata in Cairbre rigfhota,
who appears in a string of untraceable ancestors of Erc, father of Fergus
Mor, Angus and Loarn. This story pre-dates the tales of the Shenchus Fer
nAlban by a century or more and resembles some of the more ridiculous origin
legends found in Nennius (Brutus was the first to settle in Britain, Brutus, a quo
My own feeling is that if any known modal might best describe the Scots of
the Dal Riata it's probably Knordtfeldt's R1b-Sc modal.
If any one would like to read a copy of Campbell's article I can supply a
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