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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2007-07 > 1185698072


From: "J. David Grierson" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] R1b1c7 in Scotland
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 18:34:58 +1000
References: <be1.194013f8.33dcd150@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <be1.194013f8.33dcd150@aol.com>


Alan,
Please disregard my last, I've had time to do some more research on
Google, there is quite a lot of material there. It would appear that,
despite the Gilbert - Duncan progression, that "our Gilbert son of
Duncan" is of a different family.
Regards
David Grierson

wrote:

>
>David, if you don't mind, I would like to add a little more to what you say,
>as it will add to your DNA study and perhaps help others. As Sir Philip J.
>Hamiton-Grierson testifies in his "The Lag Charters 1400-1720", Gilbert
>Geresoun, 1st of Lag was the "son of Duncan". The seal of Gilbert Greresoun of Lag
>has survived and was appended to a charter preserved in the 'Liber de
>Melros'. It stands to reason, that Duncan was also a "Grersoun" and should be
>considered the first known ancestor of this family, ie. Duncan Greresoun. He
>probably lived at Ard in the parish of Tynron, where Gilbert lived prior to
>acquiring the land of Lag from John McRath of Laught. Duncan was probably alive in
>the mid 1300s.
>
>Now here is history in the making, is there a reference to a 'Gilbert son of
>Duncan', as Gilbert's seal testifies to amongst the surviving records that
>have come down to us relating Nithsdale? The answer is YES. In an age when
>surnames were still not fixed, it would have been common place for Gilbert to be
> known as Gilbert son of Duncan or Duncan's son if Duncan was living at the
>time. In the rent roll for the barony of Tibers and Morton, owned at that
>time by the Earl of Dunbar, appears the name of 'Gilbert son of Duncan' who
>rented the land of Laugh in the barony and parish of Morton Take a look at the
>following rent roll and scroll down to lands of parcum of Mortan and Laucht.
>
>_Rent Roll of 1376_
>(http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~alanmilliken/Research/ScottishRecords/Miscellaneous/MortonRentRoll.html)
>
>I would think Gilbert's father Duncan was also connected to mid Nithsdale.
>There was at one time a family known by the name Duncanson, who might well
>have descended from the same ancestor - "Grere". Was Duncan the son of 'Grere'?
>In the absence of definite proof, we will probably never know. One thing is
>very clear, 'Grere' has nothing to do with the McGregors; he was more than
>likely a native from mid Nithsdale, who like the McRaths, also spelt McRae or
>Rae, were a very old Nithsdale family.
>
>To ask another question, could Gilbert have descended from the Lords of
>Nithsdale? This is a very interesting question, given Gilbert appears to be
>connected to the old lands attached to Morton Castle, the old seat of the Lords of
>Nithsdale? It would take too long to explain my theory on this, but the
>starting point lies in a charter granted by Edgar son of Dovenald, which in the
>following webpage is numbered 27.
>
>_Early Nithsdale Documents 1200-1240_
>(http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~alanmilliken/Research/ScottishRecords/Miscellaneous/NithsdaleDocuments2.htm
>l)
>
>In short, the name Gilbert seems to have been a family name passed from
>generation to generation amongst the Griersons, and I wonder if this family could
>have been descended from Gilbert grandson of Edgar. The land of Laught
>bounds the old parish of Dalgarnock. There is certainly food for thought here.
>
>King Regards
>
>Alan
>
>
>
>In a message dated 26/07/2007 00:53:03 GMT Standard Time,
> writes:
>
> wrote:
>
>There were clans who moved into the border areas of Scotland from the
>highland areas (including a group of McGregors who became border Griersons).
>
>
>Hello Linda,
>
>I am intrigued by the above statement of yours. May I ask for the basis of
>the proposition? Whilst it fits with the family lore in my case, I have been
>unable to justify it. There are a number of contra arguments.
>1. In terms of extant documentation, Grierson is an older surname than
>MacGregor.
>2. The nineteenth century genealogical tables have in many cases turned out
>to be fabrications (in part, anyway), just a form of social climbing.
>3. In my case, I am M222+, while almost all MacGregors show as R1b1.
>4. None of the Grier(son), Greer or McGreer testees so far found have a
>haplotype that could be considered as descending from the MacGregor founder. This
>includes some who claim descent from Grierson of Lag (this being the family
>that 150 years ago claimed to be of early MacGregor blood).
>
>My paper trail peters out in Galloway around the beginning of the 18th
>century, however, Grier(son) is identified in the region 300 years before that. I
>would appreciate any input you might have.
>Regards
>David Grierson
>
>
>
>
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>
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