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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2007-07 > 1185675499


From: "J. David Grierson" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] R1b1c7 in Scotland
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 12:18:46 +1000
References: <be1.194013f8.33dcd150@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <be1.194013f8.33dcd150@aol.com>


Alan,
Thank you for your contribution.
With respect to the second document, and your comment about the
"Gilberts" in Nithsdale, there is also a reference in Number 25 which
appears to say "Duncan son of Gilbert, earl of Carrick".
Is this, in your view, the same person?
Is there much (or any) data available on the earldom of Carrick, for
instance, the general location?
Is that earldom related to the Lordship of Galloway in any way?

It seems to me that the son of an earl would get preferential treatment
in the context of the times.
Regards
David Grierson

wrote:

>
>David, if you don't mind, I would like to add a little more to what you say,
>as it will add to your DNA study and perhaps help others. As Sir Philip J.
>Hamiton-Grierson testifies in his "The Lag Charters 1400-1720", Gilbert
>Geresoun, 1st of Lag was the "son of Duncan". The seal of Gilbert Greresoun of Lag
>has survived and was appended to a charter preserved in the 'Liber de
>Melros'. It stands to reason, that Duncan was also a "Grersoun" and should be
>considered the first known ancestor of this family, ie. Duncan Greresoun. He
>probably lived at Ard in the parish of Tynron, where Gilbert lived prior to
>acquiring the land of Lag from John McRath of Laught. Duncan was probably alive in
>the mid 1300s.
>
>Now here is history in the making, is there a reference to a 'Gilbert son of
>Duncan', as Gilbert's seal testifies to amongst the surviving records that
>have come down to us relating Nithsdale? The answer is YES. In an age when
>surnames were still not fixed, it would have been common place for Gilbert to be
> known as Gilbert son of Duncan or Duncan's son if Duncan was living at the
>time. In the rent roll for the barony of Tibers and Morton, owned at that
>time by the Earl of Dunbar, appears the name of 'Gilbert son of Duncan' who
>rented the land of Laugh in the barony and parish of Morton Take a look at the
>following rent roll and scroll down to lands of parcum of Mortan and Laucht.
>
>_Rent Roll of 1376_
>(http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~alanmilliken/Research/ScottishRecords/Miscellaneous/MortonRentRoll.html)
>
>I would think Gilbert's father Duncan was also connected to mid Nithsdale.
>There was at one time a family known by the name Duncanson, who might well
>have descended from the same ancestor - "Grere". Was Duncan the son of 'Grere'?
>In the absence of definite proof, we will probably never know. One thing is
>very clear, 'Grere' has nothing to do with the McGregors; he was more than
>likely a native from mid Nithsdale, who like the McRaths, also spelt McRae or
>Rae, were a very old Nithsdale family.
>
>To ask another question, could Gilbert have descended from the Lords of
>Nithsdale? This is a very interesting question, given Gilbert appears to be
>connected to the old lands attached to Morton Castle, the old seat of the Lords of
>Nithsdale? It would take too long to explain my theory on this, but the
>starting point lies in a charter granted by Edgar son of Dovenald, which in the
>following webpage is numbered 27.
>
>_Early Nithsdale Documents 1200-1240_
>(http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~alanmilliken/Research/ScottishRecords/Miscellaneous/NithsdaleDocuments2.htm
>l)
>
>In short, the name Gilbert seems to have been a family name passed from
>generation to generation amongst the Griersons, and I wonder if this family could
>have been descended from Gilbert grandson of Edgar. The land of Laught
>bounds the old parish of Dalgarnock. There is certainly food for thought here.
>
>King Regards
>
>Alan
>
>
>
>

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