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From:
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] R1b1c7 in Scotland
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 23:53:39 EDT



In a message dated 7/21/2007 3:17:56 P.M. Central Standard Time,
writes:

It wasn't the princes and future kings of Ireland who crossed and stayed, or
at least, left their mark in the form of DNA. It was the younger sons who
had no firm future in Ireland who would have crossed over. A number of Scots
clans do claim descent from Ui Neill sons, and I believe one, the McLays of
Bute, are proven to be so.




This is where I disagree with your theory. The idea that younger sons had
no firm future within a tribe in Ireland is a feudal idea. Not so in Ireland.
The younger sons in royal dynasties of Ireland were all eligible for the
kingship. So were their sons and grandsons. This is the old derbfine custom,
which wasn't strictly followed. There were plenty of examples of intruders
into the kingship from a given tribe that were technically outside of the
boundaries established by derbfine.
Of course as time progressed those in a given tribe eligible for the
kingship would have been confined to smaller segments of the tribal population.
But here we also have to remember that Irish territory was not feudal either -
the land was owned by the tribe as a whole and distributed at regular
intervals among the tribesmen. Ireland was extremely territorial. It had hundreds
of chieftains elected from within the clan holding relatively small parcels
of land; but there was no feudal inheritance by primogeniture, forcing
dissatisfied younger sons to conquer new territory. These territories were also
fiercely defended. Just imagine the reception a boatload of Scots sailing to
Donegal looking for lands might have encountered from the local Irish
chieftains. I'm sure the reverse was true in Scotland as well. Newcomers need not
apply.

This situation admittedly changed after the Norman invasion of Ireland.
The succeeding centuries saw the importation of plenty of gallowglass Scots
into Ireland, as mercenery soldiers to the Irish chieftains. There's a famous
old poem about the hapless Ui Neill in Ireland trying to fend off the Normans
in Ulster at the Battle of Downpatrick (1260 AD). The Irish are described
as wearing flowing silk tunics with no armor at all; carrying spears into
battle against the heavily armed Normans with their teams of archers. It was a
slaughter, as one can imagine. And no accident that we suddenly find
gallowglasses imported in Ireland a generation later.

I don't think the ancient world was a free and open society, where anyone
could travel where they wished at any time and settle where they pleased. It
was very much territorial, ruled here by feudal barons, ruled there by
Celtic chieftains. I doubt strangers were welcomed with open arms unless the
local rulers saw something to gain from it.

<A number of Scots clans do claim descent from Ui Neill sons, and I believe
one, the McLays of Bute, are proven to be so.

This goes back to the Anradan legend of the 1400s and later, and is not in
the least proven. What they've done is deduce the name McLay from the
personal name Dunsleive - and further deduce that this Dunsleive must be the
Dunsleive who appears in the legends as a son of Anradan. Said Anradan is said to
be a son of Aodh Athlaman, the King of Aileach in northern Ireland, who died
in 1033 A.D. That's the supposed Ui Neill connection. There are any number
of problems with this Ui Neill connection to Scotland, not the least of which
is that the McLays are not mentioned in any of the pedigrees in Ireland or
Scotland connecting them to the Anradan kindred, which consists of the
MacSweeneys of ireland, the Maclachlans of Scotland, the MacEwens of Otter and the
Lamonts of Scotland.

What these families all have in common is an origin in Cowal and Knapdale
in Argyllshire. When the MacSweeneys were settled as gallowglass under the
O'Donnell chieftains of Tirconnell and given territorial status, most Irish
historians believe they were given a faked Ui Neill pedigree to justify their
newfound status as landholders in Donegal. The other families in Cowal and
Knapdale probably just came along for the ride on the Anradan bandwagon.

But it wasn't just the MacSweeneys who settled in Ireland as gallowglasses.
The Lamonts did as well, described as Meg Buirche in the annals and in an
O'Clery pedigree. The name Buirche comes from an Aodh Alainn an buirche in the
Anradan pedigree. Interestingly an old pedigree in the Gaelic MS. of
William Skene deduces the ancestry of the Lamonts from Anradan, son of
Gilleibeirt, King of the western Isles in Scotland. From there the Lamont pedigree goes
back to Nialgusa of Lochaber, the ancestor of the MacDonalds in Scotland,
and further back to Colla Uais of the Irish Airgiallagh. Through all these
records and pedigrees we see a line of complete fabrication, where in one place
the MacDonald chieftains (who are really Norse) are linked to Colla Uais in
Ireland; in another place, the Lamonts are linked to the same line of Colla
Uais and the MacDonalds through a Dunsleive son of Anradan; in another place
we see the same Anradan linked to Aodh Athlaman of the Ui Neill in Ireland.
In one place we see Muirchertach MacEarca of the Irish Ui Neill said to be the
founder of the Scottish Dal Riata; in another place it's just Erc, son of
Eochaidh Muinremhar who was the ancestor of the Dal Riata. In yet another
place we see a Reuda listed as the first of the Dal Riata to come to Scotland.

These old legends are fun but I really think they should be tossed into
the dustbin of history, along with King Milesius, Heber and Hermon and Fenius
Farsaid of Scythia.



John










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