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From:
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] R1b1c7 in Scotland
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 22:28:37 EDT
In a message dated 7/22/2007 5:37:25 P.M. Central Standard Time,
writes:
I recently had a look at my FTDNA webage was amazed to find so many
Dochertys and similar variations that are very close to my type. There were
other NW
Irish Surnames. I guess it is difficult for me to rule out the possibility
and that at least some of the R1b1c7 group in Galloway could have
originated
from NW Ireland. I certainly don't see this group being part of a later
wave of
Irish settlers, but a group or more of people who crossed into Galloway
before 1200 at different times. Recently, I added some more charters to my
Nithsdale Charter List and in one of them, appears the name of
"Murchereach, priest
of St Carpre of Dunescor". "Murchereach" strongly echoes an Irish origin.
Hello again, Alan. It's been awhile since you said much. But you're one of
the main people studying the Galloway/Ayshire R1b1c7 so I hope you pop up
more often.
I find it difficult to think of a single reason why NW Irish DNA (and in
particular, Cenel Conaill DNA) might have wound up in the lowlands of Scotland
after 400 A.D. The Cenel Conaill had some initial royal status in Ireland,
furnishing a number of High Kings prior to 800 A.D. Thereafter their power and
influence in the affairs of the north of Ireland waned for centuries and
they were largely confined as local chieftains of the Tir Conaill in Donegal.
In later centuries the O'Donnells forged alliances with the MacDonalds of the
western Isles - fosterage, marriages, gallowglasses. Prior to 1200 A.D. the
O'Doherty surname was unknown in Ireland. They first came to the attention
of the Irish annalists following their takeover of previously Cenel Eoghain
territory in Inishowen which followed on the heels of the Norman De Burgo
withdrawal from Inishowen.
People often cite the monastery of Iona in the westerns Isles as a
possibility for the introduction of NW Irish R1b1c7 in Scotland (post 600 A.D.) and
that continuing contact may have introduced some R1b1c7 into the western Isles.
But that R1b1c7 presence in the western Isles and Argyllshire doesn't seem
particularly heavy in DNA databases. Most of the clans considered Dal Riata
in the area are clearly not heavily R1b1c7. And the DNA is just as common
in the lowlands of Scotland, from Galloway to the borders. How do we suppose
that Cenel Conaill DNA wound up in these areas?
For me, this is a huge mystery, and one not easily cracked by relying on
historical sources. Personally I think the answer lies deep in the past, long
before the historical period in Irish sources. If casual migration is the
answer, why then does the DNA in Galloway not reflect those closest to the
Galloway coastal region, ie, the tribes in Antrim and Down? If anyone was going
to paddle across the channel to Galloway, surely these areas in NE Ireland
would be the most likely suspects. But R1b1c7 and the tribes known to be
associated with it in Ireland never had a presence in NE Scotland. At least not
until a late date in history when the Cenel Eoghain tribes of O'Neill and O
Cathain pushed into NW Ulster. And by then I think R1b1c7 in Galloway must have
been firmly established in Scotland.
Another little mystery I've been puzzling over recently is Ken Knordtfeld's
R1b-Sc modal, which appears to apply mostly to certain clans in the highlands
of Scotland long considered Dal Riata. The modal pulls up almost no matches
at all in Ireland. It's also very similar if not identical to the Colla
Uais modal for the MacDonalds proposed by Mark McDonald a few years ago. And
some say it's identical to the R1bSTR47 cluster of John McEwen. Assuming this
is a Dal Riata DNA signature, why then don't we find Irish matches if the
Scottish Dal Riata was founded by Irish immigrants from Antrim? The answer
might lie in Ewan Campbell's radical reassessment of Dal Riata history. There
was no historical large scale migration from NE Ireland as implied by the
Shenchus Fer nAlban or the traditional pedigrees of the Scottish Kings of
Scotland. Campbell even notes that if there was an influence one way or the other,
in archeological terms the influence is just as likely to have crossed over
to Ireland from Scotland. Campbell's theory is the Dal Riata always were in
western Scotland and the Irish scribes simply invented a pedigree for them as
they grew in power and became Kings of all Scotland.
If there was no large-scale migration from NE Ireland to Scotland, then why
must there have been a first millenium migration of R1b1c7 to Scotland? I
think this is based on the common misconception (as Campbell describes) of
historical migrations from Ireland to Scotland. As he notes in his article, it's
a paradigm subscribed to by all leading historians over the centuries, but
it might be completely wrong.
Campbell, rightly or wrongly, describes an ancient Celtic peoples long
connected by a common history and culture, in Ireland and western Scotland.
Western Scotland, he writes, was an isolated region in Britain, cut off from the
lowlands of Pictish Scotland by the mountains and equally isolated from the
tribes of the rest of Britain. But he doesn't ascribe to the historical
invasion and settlement model found in the ancient legends of Scotland. He
doesn't specifically mention the Galloway/Ayrshire region in his analysis - but I
doubt he would buy into an invasion/settlement modal from Ireland from those
areas either.
If any one would like to read the full text of the Campbell article I can
send a copy via email attachment. His theories are radical and probably not
even close to being accepted by mainstream historians/linguists/archeologists.
But to me they make a lot of sense. There is basically, as he notes, no
historical proof in Irish history/legend/myth that any large scale migration
from NE Ireland to western Scotland ever occurred.
I'm just writing this to get a little discussion going on R1b1c7. I could
be wrong in following Campbell's theories. And even more wrong in extending
them to include R1b1c7.
John McEwen always talks about STR diversity as an indicator of the age of a
given population group. I wonder if anyone has attempted an analysis of STR
diversity among the R1b1c7 populations of ireland and Scotland? Here you'd
have to be careful though. The Ulster Plantations brought large numbers of
Scottish R1b1c7 into northern Ireland from the lowlands of Scotland. And you
often cannot tell from a surname alone whether it is native Irish or native
Scottish, since they had a common language and identical naming patterns
based on common personal names. Someone on Ysearch who says his ancestors came
from Ireland may not mean what it seems to mean. Ulster in particular was
(based on the census of 1659) close to 40-50% English and Scottish due to the
large-scale migrations of the early 1600s and later. The rate is highest in
certain counties like Antrim, Down and Londonderry. The migration rates in
the rest of Ireland are much lower - in some southern counties, English and
Scottish percentages can be as low as 2% of the population.
If the situation were reversed and Argyllshire had been planted with foreign
colonists and settlers at rates of up to 45%, just imagine how confusing
that situation would be to DNA analysis and how easy it might be to draw false
inferences from the data, especially if one assumed all were native Scots.
Here are some population totals from the 1659 census.
Antrim 44% Eng. and Scots
Total: 16, 039; Eng, 7074; Irish, 8965
Down 43% Eng. and Scots
Total: 15,183; Eng & Scots, 6540; Irish, 8643
Londonderry 37% Eng. and Scots
Total: 16,836; Eng & Scots, 6228; Irish, 10,608
Donegal 28% Eng. & Scots
Total: 12,001; Eng & Scots, 3412; Irish, 8589
Armagh 35% Eng. & Scots
Total: 6748; Eng & Scots, 2393; Irish, 4355
Contrast this with the totals for Co. Clare (SW Ireland)
Clare 2.6% Eng. (no Scots listed)
Total: 16,914; Eng., 445; Irish, 16469.
John
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