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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2007-07 > 1185043951


From: "Bill McCampbell" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] R1b1c7 in Scotland
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 13:52:31 -0500
References: <cbc.15b6c97d.33d39e08@aol.com>


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Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 12:36 PM
Subject: [DNA-R1B1C7] R1b1c7 in Scotland


> I'd like to pose a question for the DNA experts that is probably lurking
> in
> the minds of many who are R1b1c7. How and when did the DNA come to
> Scotland? And why are so many Galloway and other border/lowland
> families R1b1c7?
> A secondary but related question might be how old is the DNA?
>
> If R1b1c7 originated in Ireland as the experts state, then it must have
> migrated to Scotland at some point, perhaps gradually over time. When
> this
> might have occurred would obviously depend on how old the DNA is. If, as
> many
> are claiming, the DNA originated around the time of Nial 'of the NIne
> Hostages,' then the DNA must have come to Scotland post 400 A.D. The
> death date for
> Nial is questioned by Irish historians but most place his obit between
> 405
> A.D. and 450 A.D. That's assuming Nial was an historical character in
> the
> first place. which not all historians accept. Trinity College placed
> the common
> ancestor for the NW Irish DNA in about 200 A.D., based on a limited
> selection of surnames from Ireland, by pedigree said to descend from
> Nial. Others,
> most notably John McEwen, believe the DNA originated long before that,
> perhaps thousands of years before.
>
> From 400 AD. onwards we are in the realm of written history in Ireland.
> In
> this time period there is nothing to suggest a migration of descendants
> of
> Nial to the border regions of Scotland or even the western Isles. One
> cannot
> point to the foundation of the Scottish Dal Riata from NW Ireland as an
> R1b1c7
> event. The Ui Neill (descendants of Nial) were not a presence in this
> part
> of Ulster (Antrim) in 505 A.D., the date generally given for the
> migration of
> the sons of Erc to Scotland. If any DNA came to Scotland with the Irish
> Dal
> Riata, it wasn't R1b1c7. They were busily carving out kingdoms for
> themselves in the NW of Ireland, in Connacht and the midlands. In
> addition, at
> least one Scottish archeologist (Ewen Campbell) doesn't believe any such
> migration ever took place from Antrim to Argyllshire in Scotland ("Were
> the Scots
> Irish?", Antiquity Vol. 75:288 2001 pp. 285-292).
>
> " There is therefore no evidence of a change
> in the normal settlement type at any point in
> the 1st millennium AD and no basis for sug-
> gesting any significant population movement
> between Antrim and Argyll in the 1st millen-
> nium AD. At best, the evidence shows a shared
> cultural region from the Iron Age, with some
> subsequent divergence in the later 1st millen-
> nium AD. Any cultural influences could be ar-
> gued as likely to have been going from Scotland
> to Ireland rather than vice versa."
>
> The other explanation routinely offered up as an explanation for R1b1c7
> in
> Scotland is equally unsatisfying - the establishment of the monastery of
> Collumcille at Iona (c521–97). Columcille was indeed part of the royal
> family of
> the Cenel Conaill in NW Ireland (R1b1c7) and contacts between Derry (the
> ecclesiastical center of NW Ireland) and Iona continued for centuries.
> In later
> centuries there were well documented contacts between the Ui Neill in NW
> Ireland and the Scots in the western Isles (fosterage, marriage, and
> gallowglasses). Hugh MacDonald in his history of the McDonalds even
> mentions a large and
> unusual retinue of Ui Neill from Derry that accompanied an O Cathain
> bride
> to Scotland in the 15th or 16th century, some of whom, he claims, founded
> families in Scotland.
>
> Another factor often cited for the presence of R1b1c7 in Scotland is the
> proximity of parts of Donegal to the western Isles. We find this said of
> the
> island of Colonsay:
>
> "To the west lies the Atlantic, with only the Du Hirteach lighthouse
> standing between Colonsay and Canada. To the east the Paps of Jura and
> Islay, while
> on a clear day the coast of Donegal in Ireland can be seen."
>
> But the closest coast of Ireland to Galloway and Ayrshire is not Donegal
> or
> Derry but the counties of Antrim and Down in the northeast where R1b1c7
> was
> noticeably absent until the lowland Scots came over in the Plantation
> years
> and later. And even in the western Isles R1b1c7 is present at only low
> levels
> of the general population and most of the major Dal Riata clans have only
> a
> sprinkling of R1b1c7 DNA, if any.
>
> Everyone is welcome to form their own opinion on this issue (and no doubt
> will). My own viewpoint is that R1b1c7 in Scotland long pre-dates the
> time of
> Nial, perhaps by hundreds if not thousands of years, if the DNA is as old
> as
> John McEwen thinks. This would mean that not all R1b1c7 are descendants
> of
> Nial.
>
> Before anyone gets in an uproar about the possible exclusiveness of this
> statement, consider this: not even in Ireland are all the R1b1c7
> considered
> "descendants of Nial" or UI Neill. The Connachta (Ui Bruiun, Ui
> Fiachrach) in
> Connacht were never described as Ui Neill in Irish manuscripts. They too
> test R1b1c7 and were from the same line, but said to descend from
> brothers of
> Nial, a genealogical fiction no historian believes. Their common
> ancestor was
> the probably mythical Conn 'of the Hundred Battles' and the possibly
> historical Tuathal Teachtmar, portrayed in irish myth as an irishman
> banished into
> Scotland.
>
> O'Rahilly (Early Irish History and Mythology) has this to say of Tuathal
> Teachtmar:
>
> "The earliest source on Tuathal's conquest of Ireland is a poem by Mael
> Mura
> of Othain (d. 887), who placed Tuathal's death at either 135 or 235 A.D.
> (manuscript copies differ). According to Mael Mura, Tuathal Teachtmar came
> to
> Ireland to quell a revolt of the Aithechthuatha. The poem tells us
> nothing of
> Tuathal's early life but simply states he came to claim his heritage,
> implying an Irish descent and exile. In this endeavor he was joined by
> Fiachra
> Cassan (of Ireland), his brother Findamail, and 600 men. Tuathal fought
> and won
> battles with the vassal tribes of the four provinces. He then assembled
> the
> conquered kings of the provinces at Tara and made them swear to be loyal
> to
> his race forever."
>
> " Later versions present Tuathal Teachtmar as an exile from Ireland. In
> the
> tract the Borama (Book of Leinster, c. 1170) Tuathal's father and
> grandfather are said to have been slain in Ireland by the Aithechthuatha.
> Another
> account in the same ms. says all the seed of Ugaine Mor in Ireland were
> slain by
> the Aithechthuatha except for Tuathal. His mother took him to Fiachra
> Cassan, who saved his life, and later sent him to Scotland to raise an
> army to
> regain his lost kingdom in Ireland. In yet another version, Tuathal's
> mother
> fled to Scotland and there gave birth. Twenty years later he returned
> with two
> ships, landing at Malahide Bay in Co. Dublin."
>
> Beyond Tuathal Teachtmar, the Irish genealogies are completely
> untrustworthy. And even the names between Tuathal Teachtmar and Nial are
> suspect, with
> the possible except of Nial's father, Echach mugmedoin.
>
> Reading these old tales of Tuathal Teachtmar almost makes one wonder if
> R1b1c7 actually originated in Scotland.
>
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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