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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2007-07 > 1185043691


From: "Richard B. Hare" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] R1b1c7 in Scotland
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 14:48:11 -0400
In-Reply-To: <cbc.15b6c97d.33d39e08@aol.com>


That's a well thought-out position. We are "Hare," and R1B1c7 from Northern
Ireland in 1718 (to the US). We will never unravel the entire story of our
family as they appear to have been back-and-forth for a couple of
millennium.
It's only something like 12 miles (20km). One could paddle a door across
that distance, and many can swim further. One family story says they went
to Scotland weekly to the Kirk.
Cheers,
Dick

-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of
Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 1:36 PM
To:
Subject: [DNA-R1B1C7] R1b1c7 in Scotland

I'd like to pose a question for the DNA experts that is probably lurking in

the minds of many who are R1b1c7. How and when did the DNA come to
Scotland? And why are so many Galloway and other border/lowland families
R1b1c7?
A secondary but related question might be how old is the DNA?

If R1b1c7 originated in Ireland as the experts state, then it must have
migrated to Scotland at some point, perhaps gradually over time. When
this
might have occurred would obviously depend on how old the DNA is. If, as
many
are claiming, the DNA originated around the time of Nial 'of the NIne
Hostages,' then the DNA must have come to Scotland post 400 A.D. The
death date for
Nial is questioned by Irish historians but most place his obit between 405
A.D. and 450 A.D. That's assuming Nial was an historical character in the
first place. which not all historians accept. Trinity College placed the
common
ancestor for the NW Irish DNA in about 200 A.D., based on a limited
selection of surnames from Ireland, by pedigree said to descend from Nial.
Others,
most notably John McEwen, believe the DNA originated long before that,
perhaps thousands of years before.

>From 400 AD. onwards we are in the realm of written history in Ireland. In

this time period there is nothing to suggest a migration of descendants of
Nial to the border regions of Scotland or even the western Isles. One
cannot
point to the foundation of the Scottish Dal Riata from NW Ireland as an
R1b1c7
event. The Ui Neill (descendants of Nial) were not a presence in this
part
of Ulster (Antrim) in 505 A.D., the date generally given for the migration
of
the sons of Erc to Scotland. If any DNA came to Scotland with the Irish
Dal
Riata, it wasn't R1b1c7. They were busily carving out kingdoms for
themselves in the NW of Ireland, in Connacht and the midlands. In
addition, at
least one Scottish archeologist (Ewen Campbell) doesn't believe any such
migration ever took place from Antrim to Argyllshire in Scotland ("Were the
Scots
Irish?", Antiquity Vol. 75:288 2001 pp. 285-292).

" There is therefore no evidence of a change
in the normal settlement type at any point in
the 1st millennium AD and no basis for sug-
gesting any significant population movement
between Antrim and Argyll in the 1st millen-
nium AD. At best, the evidence shows a shared
cultural region from the Iron Age, with some
subsequent divergence in the later 1st millen-
nium AD. Any cultural influences could be ar-
gued as likely to have been going from Scotland
to Ireland rather than vice versa."

The other explanation routinely offered up as an explanation for R1b1c7 in
Scotland is equally unsatisfying - the establishment of the monastery of
Collumcille at Iona (c521–97). Columcille was indeed part of the royal
family of
the Cenel Conaill in NW Ireland (R1b1c7) and contacts between Derry (the
ecclesiastical center of NW Ireland) and Iona continued for centuries. In
later
centuries there were well documented contacts between the Ui Neill in NW
Ireland and the Scots in the western Isles (fosterage, marriage, and
gallowglasses). Hugh MacDonald in his history of the McDonalds even
mentions a large and
unusual retinue of Ui Neill from Derry that accompanied an O Cathain bride
to Scotland in the 15th or 16th century, some of whom, he claims, founded
families in Scotland.

Another factor often cited for the presence of R1b1c7 in Scotland is the
proximity of parts of Donegal to the western Isles. We find this said of
the
island of Colonsay:

"To the west lies the Atlantic, with only the Du Hirteach lighthouse
standing between Colonsay and Canada. To the east the Paps of Jura and
Islay, while
on a clear day the coast of Donegal in Ireland can be seen."

But the closest coast of Ireland to Galloway and Ayrshire is not Donegal or

Derry but the counties of Antrim and Down in the northeast where R1b1c7 was

noticeably absent until the lowland Scots came over in the Plantation years

and later. And even in the western Isles R1b1c7 is present at only low
levels
of the general population and most of the major Dal Riata clans have only a

sprinkling of R1b1c7 DNA, if any.

Everyone is welcome to form their own opinion on this issue (and no doubt
will). My own viewpoint is that R1b1c7 in Scotland long pre-dates the time
of
Nial, perhaps by hundreds if not thousands of years, if the DNA is as old
as
John McEwen thinks. This would mean that not all R1b1c7 are descendants of

Nial.

Before anyone gets in an uproar about the possible exclusiveness of this
statement, consider this: not even in Ireland are all the R1b1c7
considered
"descendants of Nial" or UI Neill. The Connachta (Ui Bruiun, Ui
Fiachrach) in
Connacht were never described as Ui Neill in Irish manuscripts. They too
test R1b1c7 and were from the same line, but said to descend from brothers
of
Nial, a genealogical fiction no historian believes. Their common ancestor
was
the probably mythical Conn 'of the Hundred Battles' and the possibly
historical Tuathal Teachtmar, portrayed in irish myth as an irishman
banished into
Scotland.

O'Rahilly (Early Irish History and Mythology) has this to say of Tuathal
Teachtmar:

"The earliest source on Tuathal's conquest of Ireland is a poem by Mael
Mura
of Othain (d. 887), who placed Tuathal's death at either 135 or 235 A.D.
(manuscript copies differ). According to Mael Mura, Tuathal Teachtmar came
to
Ireland to quell a revolt of the Aithechthuatha. The poem tells us nothing
of
Tuathal's early life but simply states he came to claim his heritage,
implying an Irish descent and exile. In this endeavor he was joined by
Fiachra
Cassan (of Ireland), his brother Findamail, and 600 men. Tuathal fought
and won
battles with the vassal tribes of the four provinces. He then assembled
the
conquered kings of the provinces at Tara and made them swear to be loyal to

his race forever."

" Later versions present Tuathal Teachtmar as an exile from Ireland. In
the
tract the Borama (Book of Leinster, c. 1170) Tuathal's father and
grandfather are said to have been slain in Ireland by the Aithechthuatha.
Another
account in the same ms. says all the seed of Ugaine Mor in Ireland were
slain by
the Aithechthuatha except for Tuathal. His mother took him to Fiachra
Cassan, who saved his life, and later sent him to Scotland to raise an army
to
regain his lost kingdom in Ireland. In yet another version, Tuathal's
mother
fled to Scotland and there gave birth. Twenty years later he returned with
two
ships, landing at Malahide Bay in Co. Dublin."

Beyond Tuathal Teachtmar, the Irish genealogies are completely
untrustworthy. And even the names between Tuathal Teachtmar and Nial are
suspect, with
the possible except of Nial's father, Echach mugmedoin.

Reading these old tales of Tuathal Teachtmar almost makes one wonder if
R1b1c7 actually originated in Scotland.


John











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