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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2007-07 > 1185030520


From: "David Wilson" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] R1b1c7 in McKenzie DNA project
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 08:08:40 -0700
References: <741450.83740.qm@web38803.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
In-Reply-To: <741450.83740.qm@web38803.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


So far, with only ONE exception all haplotypes that look like they might be
R1b1c7 have tested M222+. I have sorted the outlier as Pre-M222 on the
project page www.ftdna.com/public/R1b1c7 . Furthermore, no haplotypes have
tested M222+ that couldn't be predicted as R1b1c7 based on STR values. I
would say that with 37 markers or more available to study, R1b1c7 is the
haplogroup that is probably LEAST in need of a SNP to confirm membership.
The STR values are that distinctive.

Can you print a link the McKenzie results or mention the Ysearch numbers for
the ones you are curious about? I'll be happy to take a look at them, but
I'm about to hit the road for the day and may not be writing again until
tomorrow.

David Wilson


-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Connie McKenzie
Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 5:40 AM
To: R1b1c7 list
Subject: [DNA-R1B1C7] R1b1c7 in McKenzie DNA project

Hello All,

My McKenzie family is represented by 3 DNA kits in the Mackenzie/McKenzie
DNA Project. I have taken my brother's DNA kit to 67 markers and also had
his sample SNP tested. He came back as R1b1c7, but does not have the Niall
emblem as he is a GD of 1 on the first 12 markers that determine who gets
the Niall emblem.

The project co-administrator has been working on a fluxus chart for the
Mackenzie project and found a current grouping of 8 DNA kits near the
results of my family and 2 DNA kits that have the Niall emblem - ( both also
at 67 markers with one SNP tested as R1b1c7). The co-admin asked me to take
a look at the other kits that were nearby on the chart.

The review of these kits is below as well as an email sent to FTDNA and
their response. Apparently, having the SNP tested is more important that I
realized as convergence can lead us to believe that a kit is R1b1c7 when in
reality it might not have the M222+ if a SNP test were to be performed. I
plan to send emails to the DNA participants in question suggesting that they
participate in the SNP test so the Mackenzie project can accurately separate
the R1b1c7s from the rest of the group.

The Mackenzie DNA Project co-admin asked me to pass this review and the
emails along to this group for comments. I am also the administrator of the
Gillespie and Macpherson DNA projects and we have a handful of what appear
to be R1b1c7s in those projects also.

Best Regards,
Connie McKenzie

Eileen Krause <> wrote: From: "Eileen Krause"
<>
To: "'Connie McKenzie \(by way of Catherine/FTDNA
<>\)'" <>
CC: "'Catherine/FTDNA'" <>
Subject: RE: R1b1c7 in McKenzie DNA project
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 09:00:09 -0500

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Hello Connie,

Thank you for your email. First, one reason for these differences is that
the haplogroup predictor uses ONLY the first 12 markers in its prediction.
This is because a significant proportion of the samples in the database with
confirmed haplogroup results have only 12 markers to compare. A person
looking at the 25 marker matches can interpret them differently based on who
the person matches at 25, but the predictor itself is only looking at 12.

The predictor also has to work with the fact that we do occasionally find
a 12 marker Niall match who is negative for M222. A sample in that
situation probably matches the Niall signature by coincidence; the signature
is only 2 steps away at 12 markers from the most common signature we find in
Western Europe, so it is only to be expected that some of the Niall matches
at 12 markers will be cases of convergence and not actually be M222.
Likewise, we also expect to find M222 in signatures that are not a perfect
12 marker match to Niall, but just as with Niall's signature other people
who are negative for M222 with the same 12 markers as those who are
positive.

The predictor balances between predicting conservatively or liberally; if
a very significant proportion of the exact matches are R1b1c7 (for example,
more than the number who are R1b1c and the number who are R1b1) then the
predictor is able to predict R1b1c7. If there too few, then the predictor
can only predict as far as R1b1 or R1b1c. The prediction will also change
over time as more people are added to the database and who test their
haplogroup.

E-mail any time,
Eileen Krause
Anthrogenealogy Response Center
Family Tree DNA
http://www.familytreedna.com
713-868-1438


---------------------------------

From: Connie McKenzie (by way of Catherine/FTDNA <>)
[mailto:]
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 4:57 PM
To:
Subject: R1b1c7 in McKenzie DNA project


Hello Catharine,

I am writing today in hopes that you can assist the Mackenzie/McKenzie DNA
Project in our quest to accurately identify the R1b1c7 participants. My own
McKenzie family is R1b1c7 and represents three of the DNA kits that will be
discussed below. I am currently assisting the project co-administrator,
Alice Fairhurst, with the task of separating the R1b1c7 kits from the larger
R1b group.

As you will see from the analysis below there seem to be some discrepancies
in reporting which kits are R1b1c7 on both the FTDNA personal pages and at
Ysearch.

I have used the Niall of the Nine Hostages DNA signature posted on the
FTDNA website as a comparison for the kits below.

We would appreciate your comments on the below analysis. We would also
like to know if there is a specific GD cut-off at 25 markers for a kit to be
assigned the "predicted" R1b1c7 haplogroup designation.

With much appreciation for your time in this matter, Connie McKenzie


R1b1c7 in the Mackenzie/McKenzie DNA project.

From a review of the below DNA kits, it would seem that FTDNA assigns the
Niall emblem only to DNA kits that are an exact match on the first 12
markers of the Niall signature. Also it would appear that a kit with a GD
of 5 from the 25 marker signature will get a "predicted" haplogroup of
R1b1c7, but a kit with a GD of 6 from the 25 marker signature will get a
"predicted" haplogroup of R1b1. BUT - there is DNA KIT # 73862 that has
the FTDNA Niall emblem and is a GD of 3 from the 25 marker Niall signature
and has the "predicted" haplogroup of R1b1 and not R1b1c7 - which of course,
makes no sense at all.

I also did a search on these DNA kits at YSEARCH.ORG. The haplogroup
information listed there was confusing. In many cases the haplogroup listed
at Ysearch did not match the haplogroup posted on the personal pages of the
DNA kits.

===============================================================

DNA KIT # 26917 - This DNA kit is the core R1b1c7 for the
Mackenzie/McKenzie DNA project. He has the FTDNA Niall emblem and is an
exact match to the 25 marker Niall signature. This DNA kit was SNP tested
as R1b1c7. This is a 67 marker DNA kit.

Ysearch -- 2WSCJ - the haplogroup is listed as R1b1c7*

===============================================================

DNA KIT # 73862 also has the FTDNA Niall emblem and is an exact 12 marker
match to the Niall signature. He is a GD of 2 from the signature for
markers 13-25. He is a total GD of 3 from the 25 marker Niall signature.
This is a 67 marker DNA kit. This kit was not SNP tested. The "predicted"
haplogroup is listed as R1b1 not R1b1c7 even though he has the FTDNA Niall
emblem.

Ysearch -- XKE8Q - the haplogroup is listed as R1b1c7 (tested)



DNA KIT # 26794 is my brother. He is a GD of 1 from the Niall signature on
the first 12 markers. He is a GD of 1 from the signature on markers 13-
25. He is a total GD of 2 from the 25 marker Niall signature. His DNA kit
was SNP tested as R1b1c7. This is a 67 marker DNA kit and does NOT have the
FTDNA Niall emblem.

Ysearch -- UFEED - the haplogroup is listed as R1b1c7 (tested)

===============================================================

DNA KIT # 28868 - He is a cousin of DNA KIT # 26794 and has the exact
results at 25 markers as DNA KIT # 26794. I did not do the SNP test on this
kit as I expected it to have the same results as DNA KIT # 26794. This is a
37 marker DNA kit and FTDNA has "predicted" the haplogroup to be R1b1c7.
This kit does NOT have the FTDNA Niall emblem.

Ysearch - 9G4VF - the haplogroup is listed as R1b1c7 (tested)


DNA KIT # 29700 is also a cousin to DNA KIT # 26794 and # 28868 and has the
exact results at 12 markers, but has one additional mutation from 13-25 so
he has a total GD of 3 from the 25 marker Niall signature. I did not do the
SNP test on this kit as I expected it to have the same results as DNA KIT #
26794. This is a 37 marker DNA kit and FTDNA has "predicted" the haplogroup
to be R1b1c7. This kit does NOT have the FTDNA Niall emblem.

Ysearch - the haplogroup is listed as R1b*

===============================================================


DNA KIT # 39474 is "predicted" to have the R1b1c7 halpogroup. He is a GD
of 1 from the signature on the first 12 markers. He has a GD of 2 on
markers 13-25 making a total GD of 3 from the 25 marker Niall signature.
This is a 37 marker DNA kit. This kit does NOT have the FTDNA Niall emblem.

Ysearch - this kit is not posted at Ysearch

===============================================================


DNA KIT # 39277 is "predicted" to have the R1b1c7 halpogroup. He is a GD
of 1 from the signature on the first 12 markers. He is a GD of 4 on markers
13-25 making a total GD of 5 from the 25 marker Niall signature. This is a
37 marker DNA kit. This kit does NOT have the FTDNA Niall emblem.

Ysearch - 7SX8W - the haplogroup is listed as R1b1 (tested)

===============================================================


DNA KIT # 31274 is "predicted" to have the R1b1 halpogroup. He is a GD of
2 from the signature on the first 12 markers. He is a GD of 4 on markers
13-25 making a total GD of 6 from the 25 marker Niall signature. This is a
25 marker DNA kit.

Ysearch - WFNZW - the haplogroup is listed as UNKNOWN









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