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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2007-07 > 1185030146


From: "David Wilson" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] 464x Test
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 08:02:26 -0700
References: <072120071347.25763.46A20E83000092DD000064A322092299279C029D9A0D01040D0E9F@comcast.net>
In-Reply-To: <072120071347.25763.46A20E83000092DD000064A322092299279C029D9A0D01040D0E9F@comcast.net>


Just one further note. We all need to remember that reporting conventions
will affect the apparent results, and it is possible to form false
conclusions about relationships if we don't bear that in mind.

An example. Take a stock 464 sequence for R1b1c7 of 15-16-16-17. Say this
gets an extended test and is found to be 15c-16c-16g-17c, or, if we look
only at the allele types apart from their values, ccgc.

Now say the 16g copy mutates to 17. Because of the conventions that report
464 in numerical order, and the secondary convention that c and g alleles
with identical STR values will be reported in alphabetical order, the new
result is reported 15c-16c-17c-17g, or cccg in the reduced format. That
looks quite a bit different, but it is really only a single step mutation in
a single copy of 464.

The ccgc and cccg patterns are far and away the most common in all R1b1c
haplotypes and are probably not that informative by themselves. One could
conceive of a situation in R1b1c7 in which the 16c allele mutated to 17, in
which case you would see 15-16-17-17 in a cgcc pattern. Now THAT might be
informative for genealogical work.

The Leinster ccgg haplotypes are not R1b1c7, but I agree they help define a
cluster that may, in time, be found to have its own SNP. R1b1c18 or
something like that? We're already up to 11 subclades of R1b1c and have
reasonable expectations of finding a few more.

David Wilson



-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of
Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 6:48 AM
To:
Subject: [DNA-R1B1C7] 464x Test

David,
Thanks for the good explanation of what the 464x test is all about. I
will use for my non-R1b1c7s, many of whom also are confused about this
test. As I said, I thought the test might be redundant for us since we
R1b1c7s know more about our geographic origins that most other DNA testees,
but if ccgc turns out to be an indicator (albeit unneeded) for R1b1c7, that
improves the chances that ccgg can be used as proof, or at least denote a
probability, of Lagin origins. I have 15 members in my Northwest Cluster,
seven of whom are R1b1c7 tested and the rest estimated, but my Leinster and
Northeast Clusters are all R1b and R1b1c--and 464x results of ccgg may help
define the group. Of course, as John McLaughlin said, there probably are
some non-Lagins who test ccgg, but we have to keep probing.
Paul
Byrne/Burns/Beirne Project

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