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From: "J. David Grierson" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-R1B1C7] DNA-R1b1c7 Scotland
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 12:24:22 +1000
References: <BAY119-W3AAC48C409361F06B9DD9D5250@phx.gbl>
In-Reply-To: <BAY119-W3AAC48C409361F06B9DD9D5250@phx.gbl>


Hello Steven,
Yes, there is no doubt that Grierson and MacGregor were used
interchangeably during the "bad times", when it was an offence to carry
the name MacGregor. However, whether Grier/son is actually a derivative
form, or alternatively a parallel development with, MacGregor is still
being debated. Once upon a time I argued the way you have, but now I'm
not sure at all.

During the 19th Century, it was fashionable in Scotland for the
establishment families to have family trees drawn up, and some were
extremely fanciful. The general aim was to show descent from major
historical figures, and the Grierson tree of Lag certainly reflects this
wish, claiming descent from, among many others, Charlemagne, Egbert 1st
of England (Grandfather of Alfred the Great), Alpin King of Scotland and
William the Conqueror. Now this tree is probably the source of the long
repeated claim that Gilbert Greresone was a certain Gilbert Gregorson
who had changed his name from MacGregor in compliance with a Charter of
1400 (not known today), and who was the second son of Malcolm, Lord
MacGregor. But nowhere in extant documentation is Gilbert identified as
MacGregor. He was also shown as having married Janet Glendoning who
descended from the Earls of Douglas.

Now the problem with all of this is that the evidence we have today is
that firstly, Gilbert Greresone's father was named Duncan, and secondly,
that he married the sister of John Durant, Lord of Betwixt the Waters in
Kirkcudbrightshire, and the Grierson tree is largely discredited. I
believe Lyon King of Arms has abandoned it. However, it is much used on
the internet by people seeking high connections. Conceivably, the
alleged Janet Glendoning connection might be a consequence of confusion
with a later Gilbert (of Kirkbryde) Grierson's marriage to a Janet
Glendoning of Parton, probably in the mid 15th Century. This later
Gilbert was the grandson of Gilbert Greresone son of Duncan, according
to the Lag tree. It is not known whether he had issue. So the MacGregor
and Glendinning ancestries in the Lag line do not stand up (which
removes Alpin, Charlemagne and Egbert from the scene!).

In terms of extant documents, the Grierson history is older than the
MacGregor. The first known reference to Grierson is the above
"Greresone", ie, son of Grere, which may or may not be a lowland Gaelic
way of pronouncing Gregor. And "Greer" is, to the best of my knowledge,
an alternative way of spelling "Grier" adopted by Scots who migrated to
Ireland. But in terms of my DNA, I'm certainly not a mainstream
MacGregor, so if my mythical ancestor called himself MacGregor at one
time, it was by way of convenience, not descent. Unfortunately, there
are no known descendants of Gilbert Greresone participating in the DNA
investigations that you and I are so involved with, and until we find
one the debate will continue.

Regards
David Grierson

Steven Lominac wrote:

> David, it is my understanding that Greer, Grierson etal are indeed derivative surnames of the MacGregors. I've read fascinating clan surname histories of how displaced clans, penal laws or simply people on the lam often led to the dropping of the Gaelic prefix or in some cases like the Grahams, would simply twist their names around in disguise, hence Graham would become McHargue or in your case, the Mac is simply dropped and anglicized on the end. From Woulfe's Irish surnames:
>
>Mac Greagair— V— MacGregor, Gregory; 'son of
>Gregory ' ; the name of a famous Scottish clan.
>
>Mac Griogair— V— MacGreer, Greer, Grear, Grier,
>Grierson ; ' son of Gregory ' ; a var. of Mac Greagair
>
>
>
>
>

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