DNA-R1B1C7-L Archives

Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2007-06 > 1180998117


From: "Ross, John" <>
Subject: [DNA-R1B1C7] R1b1c7 query
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 15:01:57 -0800


Hello,

My paternal line hits a dead end with the 1860 census of Laurens County SC.
I suspect who the progenitor of my Great, Great Grandfather is but have
nothing above circumstantial evidence. Unfortunately the Scots-Irish (Ulster
Scots) folk in Upstate SC did not trust government intrusion into their
private affairs and not many vital records exist before 1915.



My ancestor had 13 children, 12 by his 2nd wife, and per family tradition
died a young man. The 2nd wife appears in minutes of the church she
frequented both before and after their marriage. However, there's no mention
of him or the children. Again family tradition indicates they're buried in
the same churchyard; however I find no grave markers or sexton's records.



Below is the text of communication I've had with David Wilson, R1b1c7
Project Manager, and subsequently Ken Nordtvedt. As time progresses I hope
to convince more family members take the 37 marker Y-DNA test and we'll see
what significance DYS 455 = 10 holds in my Ross line of descent. You can see
my test results on YSearch under 8CA3N.



John

_____

From: Ken Nordtvedt [mailto:]
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 4:42 PM
To: Ross, John
Subject: Re: R1b1c7



If one wants to use the term "founder event" broadly, then of course the 455
= 10 is one. Some ancestor had the mutation from 11 to 10. He's the
founder; but so far it looks like the population of descendants for this
founder is not large. If you work out to more distant male relatives who
descend in male lines from common ancestors further back, you can learn if
455 = 10 was a recent mutation. I just discovered that my maternal
grandfather's Hamilton line had a fairly recent SNP mutation which causes a
null DYS557. I think you have the right idea with your plan of action.



Ken

----- Original Message -----

From: Ross, <mailto:> John

To: 'Ken <mailto:> Nordtvedt'

Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 6:24 PM

Subject: RE: R1b1c7



Ken,

I have no doubt my haplotype is R1b1c7. Here's to hoping EA will discover
SNPs defining further branches of R1b1c7 much like they've done with
R1b1c9...



At the moment I'm just wondering if DYS 455 = 10 represents a founder event
in my lineage. As you state, it possibly occurred recently in time. That's
one of the reasons for having the youngest uncle and his older brother's son
tested. I'm interested in knowing if my grandfather also reflected 455 = 10.
Testing those two and then moving outward to male descendants of my great
grandfather's brothers will brighten the picture quite a bit.



John


_____


From: Ken Nordtvedt [mailto:]
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 3:50 PM
To: Ross, John
Subject: Re: R1b1c7



Yes, the 531 values are also apparently a Genebase convention difference, so
no interesting thing here to check. Yes, you are the only 455 = 10 in NW
Irish R1b --- so far --- as the databases grow some more could show up. If
they don't, this mutation has occured very recently in a father,
grandfather, etc.



Your haplotype has all the marker values for NW Irish R1b. There is no
doubt in my mind that you descend from the founder of that clade.



Ken

----- Original Message -----

From: Ross, <mailto:> John

To: 'Ken <mailto:> Nordtvedt'

Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 5:44 PM

Subject: RE: R1b1c7



Ken,

When you stated I have a quite robust NW Irish R1b haplotype, what do you
mean exactly?



So you see a recLOH doubling event that affected 459, 464, and CDY all at
once; IE a onetime mutation? Would you consider this a founder event?



Interesting you also see significance at 455 = 10. To clarify, are you
stating per your SMGF data and Ysearch R1bs I'm the sole 455 = 10? Does this
negate your recommendation regarding 531 = 10?



I'm urging my paternal uncle, Dad's youngest brother - I'm his elder by 10
years, to take FTDNA's Y-DNA 37 marker and mtDNA+ test. Ruling out a
non-paternity event, my thrust is for confirmation of my Y-DNA results and
also determine the HVR1 and HVR2 results for my paternal grandmother. She's
93. Hopefully getting him on the bandwagon will aid in convincing other
distant cousins to test their DNA. One of my targets is my other paternal
uncle's son. Afterwards, I'll look at male descendants of my great
grandfather's brothers.



Thanks!



John


_____


From: Ken Nordtvedt [mailto:]
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:12 PM
To: Ross, John
Subject: Re: R1b1c7



False alarm. The three with 455 = 10 (other than you) were tested by
Genebase. They have a different counting convention and those guys are 11.
You are all alone. My SMGF data shows no NW Irish R1b with 10 at 455 out of
180 of them.


_____


From: Ken Nordtvedt [mailto:]
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:05 PM
To: Ross, John
Subject: Re: R1b1c7



I checked my SMGF data. Out of 180 NW Irish R1b haplotypes, none with 455 =
10. There was one 12 and all the rest 11


_____


From: Ken Nordtvedt [mailto:]
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 1:44 PM
To: Ross, John
Subject: Re: R1b1c7



You have a quite robust Northwest Irish R1b haplotype except for your DYS455
= 10. But mutations happen.



You had a recLOH doubling event which simultaneously affected 459, 464, and
CDY, which is most often the case. This was a single mutation event.



I found 4 Northwest Irish R1bs in Ysearch with 10 at 455, including you.
That might be a starting point for your searches.



Something funny came up with those four. The other three are reporting 10
repeats at 531. I thought 11 was the modal value at that slow mutating
marker? If 10 is off-modal, it could be significant in tying together those
3 with 455 = 10. That would make 531 interesting for you to measure.



Ken

----- Original Message -----

From: Ross, <mailto:> John

To: '' <mailto:''>

Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 3:20 PM

Subject: R1b1c7



Ken,

Here is text of a letter I received from David Wilson, R1b1c7 Project
Administrator in response to a query after I joined the project. My results
are on John McEwan's data base as well. Comments? Do you see any value in my
taking the DYS 461 test or updating from 37 to 67 markers? I have no matches
at FTDNA above the 25 marker level, and one at a genetic distance of 16 at
the 37 marker level.



John



Y-DNA - R1b1c7 (DeepSNP Batch 191)
M173+ M207+ M222+ M269+ M343+ P25+ M126- M153- M160- M18- M37- M65- M73-
P66- SRY2627-

mtDNA - U*
HVR1 16184T 16213A 16286T
HVR2 073G 150T 263G 315.1C

YSearch/MitoSearch ID - 8CA3N

Life is sexually transmitted

'Hi John,

Please excuse the delay in responding. Busy times.

I don't yet have a good sense of what the particular values in your
haplotype might indicate in the context of the broad R1b1c7 population.
Sometimes a particular value at a particular locus can be associated with a
specific family or cluster of families. For example, McGonigal (variously
spelled), Doherty (various) and Ewing are surnames with quite distinct DYS
values in the R1b1c7 universe. Unfortunately your haplotype does not
currently offer that clarity.

The basic approach is to identify the marker values that distinguish a
particular haplotype from the modal haplotype for the entire population,
then interpret them along with any matching haplotypes that may be observed.

You have a few markers that differ from the modal values for R1b1c7, but one
is so rare that it is hard to know what to make of it and others are at
fast-moving markers where a value may have had multiple independent origins
within the population.

Here are the ones that will be informative to you as time goes on.

DYS389ii = 30 This is one step above the modal value of 29. Other members of
the R1b1c7 project have this marker, but I haven't yet seen evidence in
other markers that would let me group them in an informative way. Probably
this value has emerged independently on different occasions within R1b1c7.

DYS459b = 9 The usual value is 10, but the lower value 9, though unusual,
should not be considered rare. Any locus for which two or more copies are
found in the Y chromosome is subject to a phenomenon called Recombinatorial
Loss of Heterozygosity, or RecLoH. This is a particular type of mutation in
which one copy does not mutate through the addition or loss of a single
string repeat, but rather is completely replaced by a new copy of the other
instance of the marker. These can be a little hard to interpret.

DYS455 = 10 This is an extremely rare value at a very stable marker in which
the value is almost invariably 11 in the R1b1c world (that is, not just
R1b1c7 but its parent group as well). This could be a fairly recent mutation
in your line, or it could be a mutation that first occurred several
generations back. If the latter, it would be an excellent family marker for
Rosses and any related families with different surnames.

DYS464 = 16-16-17-17 The 464 complex presents challenges because we don't
know exactly which copy is the one that mutates when variations are found.
By convention, values are presented in ascending numerical order. Thus your
result (which is two steps away from modal 15-16-16-17) could represent a
change in which a 15-value copy changed first to 16 and then to 17, or two
one-step changes at different loci in which a 16 moved to 17 and a 15 moved
to 16. Just to make this as complicated as possible, it is not out of the
question that both 16s mutated to 17 and the original 17 mutated back to 16,
in which case 4 separate mutations would have had to happen to separate your
values here from the modal pattern. One of my long deferred projects is a
cluster analysis of DYS 464 to see if I can spot a major organizing factor
that might help create subdivisions within R1b1c7.

DYS576 = 19 The modal value is 18. This locus shows a lot of variance, which
means that any value here must be coupled with other off-modal values in
order to suggest clan or family connections.

CDYa = 39 Again, this is a high variance marker. It should be disregarded
except perhaps for distinguishing between family lines within a large number
of individuals known to have had a common ancestor within the last two to
three centuries.

In short, I think your values at 464 and 389ii are going to be most useful
in the long run in finding a subgroup of R1b1c7 to which you belong. I'm
still looking for a way to distinguish Old Irish R1b1c7 from Old Scot
R1b1c7. Sometimes I think I see a ghostly shape in the fog, but then it
disappears again. With two or three hundred more haplotypes, we might have
enough data to make a good analysis.

I know this is pretty general. Sorry I can't be more informative at this
stage.

Best regards,

David Wilson
R1b1c7 Project Administrator'

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