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Subject: [DNA-R1B1C7] R1b1c7 Ireland and Scotland
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 15:49:49 EDT

One topic I'd like to see pursued on this list is a discussion of what it
means to be R1b1c7, aka NW Irish. When I first heard of this DNA group my
interest was piqued because of a long interest in the history of Donegal
families, the epicenter of the NW Irish in Ireland. The Trinity study did not
surprise me in the least, finding as it did a unique DNA pattern among families
said to descend from the fabled Nial 'of the Nine Hostages,' because that's
exactly what one might expect from the Irish pedigrees. Donegal is almost
exclusively populated by Cenel Conaill and Cenel Eoghain families, said to descend
from sons of Nial. If there was an earlier population (and there surely was)
we have no record of it, except for a vague reference in Ptolemy's map (150
AD) to a tribe called the Vennicni who are unknown to history. According to
most versions of Irish history, the sons of Nial (Conal, Owen and Enna) first
migrated to Donegal and carved out a kingdom for themselves sometime before
or shortly after the lifetime of Nial himself (d. 405 AD., perhaps as late as
450 AD). I was also not surprised to find that the DNA of irish men bearing
surnames related to the Connachta or Dal Cuinn also matched the same
pattern. These were centered in Connacht, mainly Leitrim and Roscommon, and were
said by mythology to descend from brothers of Nial, although few Irish scholars
accept the traditional pedigrees as historical truth.

Irish scholars also do not agree on where the three sons of Nial lived prior
to their settlement in the north. John Byrnes (Irish Kings and High Kings)
thought they came from a base in Connacht. O'Rahilly (Early Irish History
and Mythology) claimed they came north from the midlands of Ireland.

What did surprise me as I began pulling NW Irish DNA samples from public
databases (mainly Ysearch) were the large number of Scottish surnames that also
matched the NW Irish DNA. This finding surprised me because nothing in the
known history or mythology of the Ui Neill in Ireland hinted at a large
migration of Ui Neill families into Scotland in the historical period (post 400
AD). Irish historians have detailed the later expansion of the Ui Neill
centered in Donegal and Tyrone into other parts of Ulster over the centuries but
there is nothing to suggest a large scale invasion of Scotland. The one
exception seems to be the foundation of a monastery at Iona by Columcille, a Cenel
Conaill nobleman, sometime in the 6th century ((521-597 A.D.) The contacts
between Iona and Donegal (properly, Tirconnell) lasted for centuries. As late
as the 12th century there were still records of churchmen from Derry heading
the monastery in the western isles of Scotland. And at about the same time
period there are annal entries describing Scots hosting with the O'Donnells
and O'Neills in Ulster. One O'Donnell lord was fostered in Scotland and
married first a MacSweeney and later a McDonald. A century later found a large
number of Scottish gallowglass septs settled in Ireland under Irish chieftains.
It's obvious there were contacts aplenty between the western isles of
Scotland and Donegal/Derry/Tryone and the Ui Neill in Ireland but did this explain
the large number of Scottish matches to the NW Irish modal?

According to the Trinity study, the NW Irish or R1b1c7 DNA peaks in NW
Ireland (they called it the IMH or Irish Modal Haplotype):

"The IMH distribution is uneven, showing a distinct frequency peak in
northwestern
Ireland, where it accounts for 16.9% of Y chromosomes (21.5% when one-step
derivatives are included)."

The figures they give for Scotland are somewhat less but still surprisingly
(in my opinion) large:

"The 6-STR IMH is virtually absent from much of Britain but reaches
frequencies of up to 7.3% (16.7% including likely one-step derivatives) in western
and central Scottish locations."

I presume they took their Scottish haplotypes from the earlier Cappelli DNA
study of the British Isles. 21.5% in the heartbed of Ui Neill country in
Ireland vs. 16.7% in Scotland. And not all by any means in the western isles
and the vicinity of Iona, but also in central Scotland. A large number of
Scottish matches to the NW Irish modal seem to center around Galloway, running
across the border region and even into the northernmost counties of England.
This last bit came from comparing surnames in Ysearch to locations listed in
the 1881 census of England and Scotland in the online Surname Profiler.

So how did this DNA come to be in Scotland? Were they, like the Ui Neill,
descendants of Nial, or were they, like the Connachta in Ireland, somehow
connected to the same tribe prior to the time of Nial? Because even the Irish
pedigrees never claimed the Connachta were descended from Nial. Instead we
have a dubious story of brothers of Nial said to be sons of a most probably
purely mythological woman named Mong Fionn, a second wife of Nial's father.

The Trinity study placed the common ancestor of a handful of Ui Neill
famlies in Ireland at about 227 A.D. which they thought was at least consistent
with a medieval origin for the DNA. And this they linked with Nial 'of the Nine
Hostages', based on the pedigrees and geographic concentration of the DNA in
NW Ireland. But as far as I can tell from reading the study, they only took
some 59 DNA samples from selected Ui Neill surnames in Ireland to come up
with this estimate. And these surnames included Cenel Conaill, Cenel Eoghain
and Connachta surnames. It does not appear as if they took any of the
Scottish NW Irish DNA into consideration in their study, perhaps because their only
data were the limited haplotypes from the Cappelli study.

John McEwen of the GEN-DNA list has stated any number of times he thinks the
NW Irish DNA goes much further back than the date quoted in the Trinity
study. He's given several figures at different times but 2,000-3,000 BC. seems
to be a ballpark estimate. If he's correct then this DNA must be much older
than Nial himself. And therefore the logical deduction must be that all who
match the NW Irish or R1b1c7 modal are not necessarily descended from Nial
himself.

Getting any kind of accurate fix on surnames in Ireland matching the NW
Irish modal is almost impossible (for me, anyway). We know the names of the
major chieftains associated with the Ui Neill and Connachta in Irish ms. But
there are a huge number of matching surnames in Ysearch, many listing an origin
in Ireland, that cannot be linked in any way with a specific tribe or even a
specific region in Ireland. Compounding the confusion is the fact of the
Plantation of Ulster, settled largely by lowland Scots, many of whom may well
have been R1b1c7. Some Ulster counties were extremely heavily settled by
English and Scots in the early 17th century. The population totals of Eng. and
Scot in the 1659 census of Ireland often exceed 50% in certain counties (ie,
Derry).. Even in Donegal, one of the lesser planted counties, the settler
population was close to 30%. One county in the NE (Antrim) had been settled
centuries before by Scots affiliated with the MacDonalds. In the 1659 census,
certain baronies in Antrim contain mostly what appear to be Scottish surnames
although they are described as "native Irish" in the text. And by that date
they were "Irish."

What kind of tribe was this, settled in both Ireland and Scotland at a very
early date, perhaps thousands of years prior to the time of Nial? John
McEwen is also on record as stating numerous times that the DNA originated in
Ireland. Ken Knordtfeldt is of the same opinion ("that's where the haplotypes
are."). It's true that's where the great majority of the haplotypes are but
there are a few strays to be found in online databases, in such unlikely
locales as Germany, Sweden, Denmark, and France. I for one do not believe these are
all descendants of "wild geese" who fled Ireland in the 17th century or
descendants of wandering Irish monks.

I've posted these matches before, mostly to no response on the GEN-DNA list,
but I'll do it again here for curiosity's sake.

France

E6FQH Marian, James, about 1730, in France
FW46N Fournier Marans, Charante-Martin, France
SMGF Thevenin France
3A5MS Le Compte Rouen), France
German Proj.(FTDNA) Hebert Normandy, France
N11373 Cloutier FRENCH HERITAGE Y-DNA PROJECT
N25863 Bodrie FRENCH HERITAGE Y-DNA PROJECT
N33005 Bertrand FRENCH HERITAGE Y-DNA PROJECT
6JJRE Fortineux Otterberg, Germany, France
FWX3R Schneider Montbronn, France

Denmark

SMGF Myrup
SMGF Jacobson

Sweden

CH83B Fryklöf Sweden unk.
SMGF NILLSON Sweden

Iceland

SMGF MYRES Iceland


Germany

QVDQ9 Brune Germany R1b1
YZWJ9 Baker Bingen-on the Rhine, Germany
WCZUU Lominac Lauterecken, Germany German Project
(FTDNA) Willauer Germany German. Proj.
(FTDNA) Diehl Germany
SMGF Steiner Oberschlesion, Germany
32NVU Jaeckel Hesse-Darmstadt/Hessen-Darmstadt, Germany
59TV6 Hagan Germany
SMGF Kohl Darmstadt, Hessen
GMK33 Stoehr Roschbach, Palatinate/Pfalz, Germany
4MXVZ Stroup U.S. (German descent)
PVTA8 Rotenberry Germany
3RPDB Shoemaker Germany

Holland

5AEQK Van Tienhoven Breuckelen-Province of Utrecht, Holland


Some of these "matches" may not even be NW Irish. One that has been SNP
tested is WCZUU, or Lominac (originally Lamineck), from Lauterecken, Germany.
Some are just 12 marker tests. And we certainly can't demand that everyone
get SNP tested. Another interesting one is Stroup (4MXVZ). As far as he and
his family knew his ancestors were Germans. And then he discovered he was
R1b1c7. What a shock. To go from German to Irish with the brush of a DNA swab.
You can contact him yourself on Ysearch and he'll tell you about it. He
doesn't really buy the wandering Irish monk theory either. At least he didn't
when I talked to him. Maybe he's changed his tune since. In contrast, the
Lominac testee rather fancies an Irish origin for his German ancestors. He
can't explain how they got to Germany and changed their name to Lamineck
though.


I have to admit I went searching hither and yon for possible NW Irish DNA
on the continent largely under the influence of Thomas O'Rahilly, who claimed
they first came to Ireland from Gaul sometime around 50 BC. Merely
mentioning O'Rahilly and his obsolete and debunked theories is enough to raise the
hackles on the GEN-DNA list. Perhaps I shouldn't mention his name here either.
So on that controversial subject I'll say no more.


John



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