DEVON-L ArchivesArchiver > DEVON > 2002-03 > 1017615319
From: Liz Stirling <>
Subject: Re: Birthplace vs. Origins
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 16:55:19 -0600
References: <email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Dear Richard- thank you for the history lesson. Explains why one of my
relatives who was born in Ontario, and invented a harness mechanism (I
have the original patent) was listed on the patent as a British subject.
Born in the 1870's in Canada. Thank you- Liz Stirling in Illinois.
Richard Carruthers-Zurowski wrote:
>Until 1947 there was no such thing as Canadian citizenship. Even after that
>Canadians were also born British subjects (I was so born in 1963). This
>statement appeared in my first passport in the early 1970s: "The bearer of
>this passport is a British subject". Later the statement was replaced with
>"The bearer of this passport is a Commonwealth citizen", which doesn't have
>the same meaning to my mind, nice though the concept is. When my forebears
>left Devon for Canada in 1833 I am sure that they never dreamed that their
>descendants would cease to be British. Canada's first Prime Minister, Sir
>John A. Macdonald was famous for his statement "A British subject I was born
>and a British subject I shall die". In a world where we are constantly
>talking about the global village etc., it does seem odd to me to have seen
>the dismantling of that great overarching family of nations who all enjoyed
>inclusion under the umbrella term, British subject. I find it a little hard
>that my maternal grandfather and his siblings went to Canada and East Africa
>in the 'noughties' of the last century with no passport and I cannot travel
>to Australia, for example, without being considered 'foreign', when the
>number of generations that separate me from my Aussie cousins in Adelaide
>(they went out in 1838 while my forebear, also a Bray, possibly of Devonian
>ancestry, arrived in Upper Canada in 1838, all sans passports). Wider and
>yet wider shall thy bounds be set, the sentiment of Elgar's Land of Hope and
>Glory, is my viewpoint. If we are going to have 'one world', I'd much rather
>have it under Pax Britannica (incl. Pax Devonica), in a renewed
>Commonwealth, than under any other.
>Happy Easter and a blessed mourning period for Her late Majesty of happy
>Richard H.B. Carruthers(-Zurowski), B.A. (Hons), Oxon.
>Vancouver, British Columbia, CANADA
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Lorraine Frost" <>
>Sent: 31-Mar-02 4:35 AM
>Subject: Re: Birthplace vs. Origins
>>Hello Louise and List Members,
>>I will not profess to be an expert on Canadian History, but am recalling
>>from my school days. Other list members may have other information.
>>1932 there was no such thing as Canadian citizenship. All persons had
>>British citizenship. Ethnic origins have been collected on Canadian
>>questionnaires, up to the present time. Canadians of British origin in
>>particular would have definitely identified themselves as British, English
>>etc. In fact, until the 1970's if someone asked me what my nationality
>>was, I would say "English", even though I was two generations distant from
>>the old country. A visit to the U.K. in 1974 gave me the opportunity to
>>realign my national self-identity.
>>So, in looking at the 1871 Ontario portion of the census (only a portion
>>this census is available on-line - Ontario being one bit), one can
>>determine which of the hits is a possibility by birth place and ethnic
>>In looking at the 1871 map posted on the site, I find that there are place
>>names no longer in use that give clues to the origins of European settlers
>>in the area. The names seem to cluster - ie lots of Irish names together,
>>then lots of English etc. So anyone with good knowledge of Devon place
>>names could likely find the counties must fruitful to search.
>>At 12:29 PM 31/03/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>>>A while back a lister posted this site to check out
>>>the Ontario Census Index of 1871
>>>I managed to find a SOBEY & a SOBY!
>>>Under 'Birthplace' it states that both where born in Ontario and under
>>>'Origins' it states 'English'.
>>>I understand this to mean they where born in Ontario but their ethnic
>>>origins were English. Their ancestors having come from England - which
>>>would most likely be Devon (or maybe Cornwall via Devon).
>>>Please, has anyone any ideas or suggestions how many generations Canadian
>>>born before they are no longer form a different ethnic origin.
>>>Thanking you in anticipation,
>>>Devon FHS member
>>>SOBEE / SOBYE / SOBY / SOBEY any time & place
>>>SOBEE / WILLIS / POPHAM- Holbeton, Plympton St. Mary,Yealmpton,
>>>NORTHWAY - Joanna c.1760 Manaton, Devon
>>>SOBEE William b. 1855 Holbeton, Devon - Groom in Durham in 1881, then to
>>>==== DEVON Mailing List ====
>>>The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon
>>>(http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/genuki/DEV/) and the Devon FHS
>>==== DEVON Mailing List ====
>>The DEVON-L mailing list is co-sponsored by GENUKI/Devon
>>(http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/genuki/DEV/) and the Devon FHS
>==== DEVON Mailing List ====
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