BRETHREN-L ArchivesArchiver > BRETHREN > 2008-07 > 1216401468
From: john shafer <>
Subject: Re: [BRE] John H. of mention in the 1798 Annual Meeting
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 17:17:48 +0000
I greatly appreciate these discussions on this list! I am getting an education about the history of the Brethren that is not generally taught. Wayne Webb's comparison of the Old Orders as the Annual Meeting Brethren of Martin's day and the Progressives as the Pietists of Martin's day got my attention. This tension in the church is still going on today in regard to congregational autonomy as opposed to the rulings of Annual Conference. This is happening in relation to a number of issues including Biblical Authority and other issues that I won't name to prevent discussions that are too controversial for the list. It's interesting to see that we still have the same tensions today that the Brethren have experienced for many generations.
Oakton, VA> From: > To: > Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:21:40 -0400> Subject: Re: [BRE] John H. of mention in the 1798 Annual Meeting> > Morning Steven,> > Thank you for pointing out the Universalism in America book. For people > who are seriously interested in reading about the differing views of > Pietism, at least as practiced in America in the colonial days, Eddy's book > is a well written primer. Yes, you do need to get past the Biblical and > theological references but as a general background source it is well > written.> > What intrigues me to no end is that modern German Baptist historians > have chosen, or not been aware of, these various works. It could be that > they chose not to read it because it was not "German Baptist" in origin. Or > perhaps it was an ignorance of the not widely known aspect of Universalism > and Pietism having an impact on early German Baptist history.> > I choose to take the moderate stand that it was because of a lack of > understanding of the impact. The longer I get in the tooth the more I > accept that this lack is because of self-imposed blinders to the > possibilities that other religious based concepts did have an impact. And > because the late 19th and early 20th Century German Baptist historians, sans > Cassel, did not write on the subject, writers of our time are not aware of > the larger impact.> > Perhaps if more was known of George Adam Martin, both from a literary > and historical standpoint, we today would have a better understanding of the > roots of the German Baptist church in Pietism. While many modern historians > are aware of his problems with the accepted ruling councils of his day, it > is only recently becoming understood that he was somewhere in between Annual > Meeting Brethren, Ephrata Brethren and Universalists.> > Just look at where he or his students in theology were and it soon > becomes apparent that our more moderate Annual Meeting Brethren were > constantly at odds with this Pietist based theology. We have the problems > in the Carolinas, which I believe also extended up into southern Virginia, > Kentucky, Missouri, Illinois and yes even into southern Ohio. And this "at > odds" relationship lasted long after Martin's demise. Read about the > Landisites, Eymanites (Oymanites) and any of the other short-lived sects and > stretch your imagination. Read between the lines!> > Perhaps you might even say that Martin's Pietist impact lasted into to > the 1880s. Could we term the Old Orders as Annual Meeting Brethren of > Martin's day and the Progressive's as the Pietists of Martin's day? Martin > seemingly espoused a congregational based ruling body (each church ruled > itself) while the Annual Meeting Brethren of that era preferred a body of > elders ruling the entire body of the church. An interesting concept! > Perhaps I got the horse before the cart on that one. <grin>> > Wayne Webb> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > Oddly enough, Ham was traditionally stated as being the John H by earlier> > historians.> > Mentioned without source in 1884 in Richard Eddy's UNIVERSALISM IN > > AMERICA,> > volume 1.> > H.K. Carroll stated this as well in a 1878 magazine article in SUNDAY> > AFTERNOON magazine.> >> > Going back further to 1848 is Dave Bennedict in the "General History of > > the> > Baptist Denomination in America...) claiming it was Ham. He puts these > > Dunker> > universalists in Green River County, Kentucky;> > southern Illinois, Missouri, and Iowa. I think Ive seen material from> > around this same time (1840s), but Im still working on putting my notes > > in order.> >> > steven rowe > > > ------------------------> Search the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/BRETHREN> ------------------------> Support Our Sponsoring Agency> The Fellowship Of Brethren Genealogists (FOBG)> For further information contact Ron McAdams mailto:> ------------------------> > -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
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|Re: [BRE] John H. of mention in the 1798 Annual Meeting by john shafer <>|